OW vs AOW

[nimoh]

Horse pucky! If a person needs that much supervision at the end of the OW class then they should never have left the pool. The other issue is I've seen instructors and DM's I would not dive with let alone allow someone I cared about dive with them. The goal of OW certification is to train a person to dive independently with a buddy of equal skill and training in conditions similar to those in which they trained. With no professional present. The divers should be able to fully plan, execute, and safely return from a dive.

IN fact they should be able to return to the site where they did their checkouts the next week and with no outside assistance dive that site. If they can't then they need to look at how they learned and what the instructor neglected to pass on to them. Or they need to go over their class notes and see what they missed or ignored. Sometimes students mess up and do not take the training seriously.

They buy the BS line that OW diving within recreational limits is the safest thing in the world. They don't realize or care that they can die in minutes or even seconds by ignoring a critical aspect of the training. By the same token some instructors give the impression that there is very little risk. While they may go over the risks they do so in a ligthhearted manner or do not convey just exactly what happens when you pop a lung.

I have seen and heard instructors tell students "don't worry about this or that because you will have a DM in the water with you." Or so and so puts a DM in on every dive. They don't tell them that people have died by blindly following a DM or Guide. Not good for business. The only person responsible for keeping you safe is you. The sooner this gets into more peoples heads the sooner a number of problems will go away.

I think we are arguing the same point from two different perspectives. It sounds like you think OW should be more intense so that divers are capable of safely diving independently, while I am saying that OW is not intense enough to ensure students safely diving independently and so they should take more classes.

or perhaps you are saying that OW is set up right, just some instructors are too easy.

 

[rhwestfall]

but there are a lot that although complete all of the skills, they have such difficulty that perhaps they shouldn't be diving without a much more experienced diver.

then they perhaps shouldn't have earned their card YET...... they need more instruction/time to refine the skills...

 

[Bob DBF]

I think we are arguing the same point from two different perspectives. It sounds like you think OW should be more intense so that divers are capable of safely diving independently, while I am saying that OW is not intense enough to ensure students safely diving independently and so they should take more classes.
or perhaps you are saying that OW is set up right, just some instructors are too easy.

The problem is not in the definition of OW diver, but the ability of some to train divers to that level.


Try some light reading, http://www.wrstc.com/downloads/03 - Open Water Diver.pdf. It is the WRSTC OW training standards which PADI and others use. You will find this under Scope and Purpose:

Open water certification qualifies a certified diver to procure air, equipment, and other services and engage in recreational open water diving without supervision. It is the intent of this standard that certified open water divers shall have received training in the fundamentals of recreational diving from an instructor (see definition). A certified open water diver is qualified to apply the knowledge and skills outlined in this standard to plan, conduct, and log open-water, no-required decompression dives when properly equipped, and accompanied by another certified diver.

The application of minimum standards by agencies and instructors, as you have seen, does not meet their stated goal.

Notice the "in the same conditions you were trained" is not in the definition. That means to me that instructors are using that phrase instead of taking the time to work on a divers judgment when facing new conditions, which is vitally necessary to become a competent OW diver.



Bob
-----------------------------------
You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away, know when to run.
The Gambler

I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[nimoh]

thanks Bob, was totally unaware of this document, and as such my opinions are very uninformed

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

Question for the posters to this thread, if the student doesn't apply themselves after the class, would it really make any difference if their OW or any training consisted of several weeks of intense training, or 3 days of modular training?

 

[DevonDiver]

With a modular course structure... future instructors have the opportunity to remediate such lack of application. To answer your question though, no training system has any value if the student doesn't bother to apply that training post-qualification. However, one of the roles of the instructor concerned is to help shape and formulate a positive attitude within the student, which encourages them to value and apply their training once the course ends. That's the difference between a true 'educator' and someone who just carries an instructor card and runs through a tick-list of skill requirements with their students.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

These threads are always interesting, It's interesting to hear from instructors out there and the different approaches to training.
Speaking as a student...I would rather my instructor teach me as if he will never see me again.......
....rather than teach me as if he/she will be seeing me multiple time over the years for additional training.

I want the whole steak.......I don't want (or need) anyone to cut it up into little pieces for me.

-Mitch

 

[DevonDiver]

I would rather my instructor teach me as if he will never see me again.......
....rather than teach me as if he/she will be seeing me multiple time over the years for additional training.

I want the whole steak.......I don't want (or need) anyone to cut it up into little pieces for me.

I share the same preferences. PADI was my only option when I learnt - so I took OW and AOW back-to-back. Basically, a 9-dive, 12-week entry-level program, wit pool sessions every week.

Modular can be singular - if you shunt the courses together.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

I should have added ,that I realize that many people don't want a longer initial period of training due to scheduling or cash outlay all at once.
It's certainly more difficult in terms of time to commit to a longer training class especially considering that many people are getting trained while on vacation.

I'm sure it's tough to balance out for instructors and training agencies......It does seem that many have taken so much out of the OW course just to make it shorter and as minimal as possible. I imagine the thought being that the OW student will just have to come back later and take the additional courses.

The problem with this is that if most of those students never get the later training or wait a long time to take it...they are diving without having been taught all that they could/should have.

As I've read through and posted through many of these types of threads.....I've come to learn that it really is the instructor......

It's not just a Scuba Board cliche'.

I do think it's better to cut that steak in to fewer big pieces, rather than many small ones.

DD.....if I were ever in your part of the world...I'd certainly seek you out for some training. I've been giving some thought to DM training.....if I can get the time I'm thinking about heading down to Okinawa to do it. I've got a couple of dive trips planned first.

-Mitch

 

[RonFrank]

If you are taking one of the recent OW classes you will get the chopped training, and done at high speed. I spent a month going over the material prior to class. I stayed after class was complete to get in extra pool time. Two of us stayed out of eight. Lets face it, most new divers want the easy test, the flash quiz where low test scores are acceptable. Many fail the most important part IMO and that is planning a dive using the tables. The fact that they rushed out of there instead of getting additional pool time says something as well.

I have a friend who instructs at the college and they are the only dive students that get ample time to soak in the material. Granted many quicky course students do as I did and spend a few weeks with the material. But many do not.

Fortunately we had good instructors and they made every student plan there dives, calculate their pressure groups, and log their dives. They also spent some time in the classroom going over important skills and gas management. But a number of our students missed some key things simply because it was too much to absorb in two weekends. I think that is typical, one weekend classroom/pool, one weekend OW checkout dives. I thought our instructors were awesome considering the time they had.