OW vs AOW

[freewillie]

Short answer is nothing magical about diving deeper because of AOW training.

However, the major recurring theme with many diving accidents are divers attempting dives that they lack experience and training. Diving to 100 - 130 feet without training is a situation that many would not consider safe.

Let's not confuse education and training as the same as experience and competence. It's a little like getting a learner's permit for driving. We've used this analogy before. You might be good enough with a learner's permit to drive to the store, but that does not qualify you as a good driver in general. There is a reason why new driver's insurance rates are higher.

As an OW diver are you aware of what it feels like to have nitrogen narcosis?, can you without thinking recognize you or your buddy is narc'ed?, are you aware that with increasing depth your wetsuit is compressed decreasing your buoyancy? do you know to watch your descent rate even more carefully as you go deeper? and most importantly are you aware that you consume air/gas almost twice as quickly than on a shallow dive? That same 80 AL tank at 45 minutes 40 feet may last only 20 minutes at 110 feet. Way too deep for CESA. Now you are in trouble.

Personally, I think there is value in taking a deep diver course or AOW if nothing else you get to do those dives with a more experienced diver. It is more controlled that getting a buddy with more experience to do the same dive. One way to think of it would be, would you take your kid to that depth without training? You would hire a DM or put them in class if that's what they were going to do.

Fun and safe diving.

 

[rhwestfall]

couldn't agree more. Taking OW and calling yourself a scuba diver is saying you have a University education after 1 semester.

probably more like the difference between a 2-year and a 4-year degree......

 

[nimoh]

For the sake of argument that's not really a valid analogy, unless you mean "currently in the process of getting OW certified". In which case I'd agree with you. In my useless opinion, if you are OW certified and engage in scuba diving, than you are a scuba diver.

I think it is valid, and yes you are technically a scuba diver after OW much like you have a university education after one semester. The point is neither is complete.

 

[soltari675]

I like the current system of training, where it is easy to get OW and then progress through other classes. One thing I disagree with is that after OW, students should not be told that they can dive on their own, I think OW certification should require a DM or Instructor to be on every dive. Then AOW would qualify divers to dive on their own (with an AOW buddy of course).

I agree with the rate of training, having the several individual classes, however I disagree about having a DM required with OW. The whole point of taking the OW course is to learn how to dive safely. If I am not confident or don't have the skills to dive on my own with someone of similar experience, then the instructor failed or I failed. When I was done with my OW, I did dives with others not professional level and I was having fun. I was comfortable, and I did handle a stress situation (a diver not my buddy didn't have his air on all the way and thought he was out of air) without stress on myself. I knew exactly what to do, and we fixed the problem underwater and continued our dive. I feel I was well trained for basic diving.

I was also taught the dangers of diving beyond my training, so I knew to come back for more training before doing more. I am almost Master Scuba Diver now (one more class in February, yay!) and still feel like I am learning every time I dive. But I still would have been very disappointed in my training and money spent if I had to have a DM with me after OW.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

With some agencies AOW is not required for Rescue and IMO it should not be. If rescue skills are not included in the OW class they should be included in AOW. I have them in both. I'd rather have someone take rescue before AOW. Advanced dives can have the effect of people getting into trouble quicker with more serious consequences. A good rescue class is not as much about saving someone. It is that but more so it's about seeing problems before they happen and heading them off before they become incidents or accidents. The entire skill set that rescue teaches could come in very handy on advanced dives. I also feel that if people were more aware of what can happen on an advanced dive they would take the training more seriously and not settle for these BS AOW courses that are only a "taste" or "tour" of advanced dives. They would also not put up with some of the crap dives that are included in some AOW courses that are nothing more than filler and help meet the 5 dive minimum for the class.

What does Fish ID or Boat Diver have to do with advanced dives. Boat diving can be covered in the OW class in about half an hour. Fish ID is somewhat addressed in my Environment lecture but a better idea is to just go on Amazon and buy a book about fish identification. Cheaper and likely more useful unless the instructor is a marine biologist. AOW should only include those dives where skills needed to deal with "advanced dives" are required. And it should introduce those skills and the skills be clearly explained as to why they are needed and what the risks of not having them are. It should also increase the knowledge the student has in the areas of gas management, emergency deco procedures, dive planning, and why sometimes the best "advanced dive" is the one you say no to.

The agencies that made AOW a sample of advanced dives with no real new skills introduced and included ones that divers will never use (who the hell is going to open a lock at 90 feet?) and did not include ones that are likely to be used by divers, not only cheapened the rating and made it a joke, but also put people at unnecessary risk. I see all the time instructors taking students to 90-100 feet on al 80's. With no discussion of SAC rates, rock bottom, or the use of redundant air supplies. Not only stupid, but if they have a real hoover in the class it's down right dangerous.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

Hi SC,

Things are normal here in. Supplies and other related things are all back to normal.
It didn't take long for things to get on track here, but as you said we are pretty far south from the damage area.

-Mitch

Minor derail -

Mitch - How is Iwakuni after all the tsunami/nuclear stuff? I know you are quite a ways away - is life returning to normal? Gas and other supplies getting available again?

End minor derail

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I like the current system of training, where it is easy to get OW and then progress through other classes. One thing I disagree with is that after OW, students should not be told that they can dive on their own, I think OW certification should require a DM or Instructor to be on every dive. Then AOW would qualify divers to dive on their own (with an AOW buddy of course).

Horse pucky! If a person needs that much supervision at the end of the OW class then they should never have left the pool. The other issue is I've seen instructors and DM's I would not dive with let alone allow someone I cared about dive with them. The goal of OW certification is to train a person to dive independently with a buddy of equal skill and training in conditions similar to those in which they trained. With no professional present. The divers should be able to fully plan, execute, and safely return from a dive.

IN fact they should be able to return to the site where they did their checkouts the next week and with no outside assistance dive that site. If they can't then they need to look at how they learned and what the instructor neglected to pass on to them. Or they need to go over their class notes and see what they missed or ignored. Sometimes students mess up and do not take the training seriously.

They buy the BS line that OW diving within recreational limits is the safest thing in the world. They don't realize or care that they can die in minutes or even seconds by ignoring a critical aspect of the training. By the same token some instructors give the impression that there is very little risk. While they may go over the risks they do so in a ligthhearted manner or do not convey just exactly what happens when you pop a lung.

I have seen and heard instructors tell students "don't worry about this or that because you will have a DM in the water with you." Or so and so puts a DM in on every dive. They don't tell them that people have died by blindly following a DM or Guide. Not good for business. The only person responsible for keeping you safe is you. The sooner this gets into more peoples heads the sooner a number of problems will go away.

 

[DevonDiver]

couldn't agree more. Taking OW and calling yourself a fully trained scuba diver is saying you have a University education after 1 semester.

Edited that for you.

The PADI system is modular. It's not a suitable approach for the type of person who tends to take a basic/intro course and then consider themselves expert.

For such a person, Jim's model of training is far more beneficial - a long, in-depth course that develops a more finished product in terms of skill-set, ingrained skill and knowledge.

The PADI system is trickle feed of development. There's lots of 'cons' to that, but also many 'pros', such as the option for training during short annual overseas vacations. You just have to respect it for what it is and balance the training given against the diving conducted.

To be fair, PADI do balance their modular, trickle-feed, system by placing conservative limitations (recommendations) against each stage of development. Only an idiot would opt for the fastest, most convenient and cheap course... and then protest that such a course didn't provide the full scope of diving opportunity for them subsequently.

 

[Bob DBF]

The PADI system is now modular. It's not a suitable approach for the type of person who tends to take a basic/intro course and then consider themselves expert.

For such a person, Jim's model of training is far more beneficial - a long, in-depth course that develops a more finished product in terms of skill-set, ingrained skill and knowledge.

The PADI system is trickle feed of development. There's lots of 'cons' to that, but also many 'pros', such as the option for training during short annual overseas vacations. You just have to respect it for what it is and balance the training given against the diving conducted.

To be fair, PADI do balance their modular, trickle-feed, instructor dependant system by placing conservative limitations (recommendations) against each stage of development. Only an idiot would opt for the fastest, most convenient and cheap course... and then protest that such a course didn't provide the full scope of diving opportunity for them subsequently.

Edited that for you.

In 1980 I took a NAUI / PADI OW course that turned out divers competent to dive the Nothern Coast of California independantly as a buddy team. Although the course may not have met Jim's standards, it was way closer to his than PADI is now. The shop ultimatly dropped PADI, and I would guess it was because their OW cert standards were not good enough to make the divers competent in the waters they would be diving.

I have taken and participated in PADI classes more recently and although the modular system is not to my taste, it seems to work for the divers involved. My complaint is that this system seems to make the diver instructor/authority figure dependant rather than producing an independant diver. It could be the instructor or, more likely, it could be a system that needs dependant divers to fuel the machine.

The reason instructor / authority figure dependant divers bothers me, is that the diver uses another persons judgement over their own. This will set up the diver to trust an "authority figure" to keep them safe whilst diving. "Trust me" dives are the road to perdition, planning and executing your own dives is on the road to salvation. It's your life it should be your judgement and any diver training should, foremost, be teaching this.


Bob
---------------------------------------------
I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[nimoh]

I agree with the rate of training, having the several individual classes, however I disagree about having a DM required with OW. The whole point of taking the OW course is to learn how to dive safely. If I am not confident or don't have the skills to dive on my own with someone of similar experience, then the instructor failed or I failed. When I was done with my OW, I did dives with others not professional level and I was having fun. I was comfortable, and I did handle a stress situation (a diver not my buddy didn't have his air on all the way and thought he was out of air) without stress on myself. I knew exactly what to do, and we fixed the problem underwater and continued our dive. I feel I was well trained for basic diving.

I was also taught the dangers of diving beyond my training, so I knew to come back for more training before doing more. I am almost Master Scuba Diver now (one more class in February, yay!) and still feel like I am learning every time I dive. But I still would have been very disappointed in my training and money spent if I had to have a DM with me after OW.

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of lowest common denominator. Most OW graduates are capable of safely diving without a DM, but there are a lot that although complete all of the skills, they have such difficulty that perhaps they shouldn't be diving without a much more experienced diver.