OW diver below 60 feet?

[MauiScubaSteve]

what are the additional safety procedures not taught in OW that you would need for 130'? Wait, let rephrase that question. What additional safety procedures are taught in AOW that are not taught in OW. Or perhaps you can elaborate at what depths (up to 130' so we don't get too carried away) do the safety procedures taught in OW become insufficient"

...

So enough of my rambling. This has now officially become boring.

now i don't wanna get in the way of a good, entertaining, pissing match, but i will say that my AOW dive to 130', while teaching me nothing in the way of safety procedures, was a HUGE eye-opener to the effects of narcosis.

i was narcd silly out of my mind (cold socal water helps) but would not really have known if i didn't have to do math that on the surface was simple but at depth i couldn't perform at all.

so in that case, yes AOW taught me about diver safety -- not in procedure, but in awareness.

Perhaps you believe that 130' for AOW is just a bogus limit as well and tell people to dive past that. I do not know, nor do I care. All I know is that you have won....I lost interest in listening to bad advice....You and I can argue again sometime soon.

Not only are you "not getting in the way", you seem to be "throwing gas on the fire!" What agency was your AOW with?

please, excuse my gas.

PADI for AOW

I find it pretty funny that the OP's scenario, where only a recommendation was exceeded by only 20' (60'-80'), generates such serious sounding debate, while these posts lead to a misquote of the recommendation for depth after AOW by 30' (100', not 130'), speak of a serious Training Standards violation (100' max AOW Deep, not 130') and generate no comment whatsoever.

As we approach 100 posts on this thread, as with most threads this long, I see little valid discussion. I do like Walter's last post

 

[orange_diver]

Perhaps because i wasn't a freshly minted OW diver when i took AOW, and to add to that i'd been to 100' numerous times already. And i didn't post online that i was uncomfortable about it either.

 

[jjhill]

This is an interesting topic. In my opinion the OP made a responsible choice. He was faced with a few options. Not do the dive at all, dive to 80 feet as part of the group feeling uneasy about it, or dive to 80 feet with a private DM as his buddy watching over him the whole dive.

I think both the option of not doing the dive or the option of the private DM are the two responsible choices out of the three. The OP knew that going deeper so soon after certification added on some new challenges and new risks. So he took the initiative to give himself some added security and in the end gained some valuable experience.

New experiences are part of the fun at diving. However they must be approached with caution. I think the decision to make the dive with a private DM was a good one. My opinion would be different though if he made the dive just as part of the group.

As other have mentioned blind trust in a DM can also be risky so in this case it would have been prudent of the OP to have asked various people who know the DM and the DM himself as to his own experience and opinions on what makes a safe dive. I'm not sure if this was done or not but believe it to be a important part of the decision to make the dive or not.

To conclude I also believe there is a tendency in Cozumel (from my bery limited experience there) that some ops and DM's are a little too quick to allow divers to do dives that they may not be entirely comfortable with. While I was there a couple weeks ago we ran into a couple who was told that they were good to come with a group of us that was headed to do Devils Throat which has a swim through at 130 feet. The were on the dives with us the previous day to 80 feet at the Santa Rosa wall and did fine so the DM said they were good to come with us to 130 feet when this would have been about their 4th or 5th dive after their OW. They were clear to the DM about their limited experience and the DM simply replied I saw you do OK at 80 you'll be fine at 130. This surprised me as that DM has no idea about how this couple may react to such a depth where narcosis is a major concern and was so nonchalant about letting them join us on the dive.

Turns out the weather turned on us so we never did the dive anyway but this speaks volumes for how some DM might be a little to quick to allow divers to do dives that they may not be ready for.

 

[Walter]

She was not attacking me. She was attacking Zieg, saying personal things like "There is no room for your ideas here," and "You just don't get it," etc., rather than quoting the ideas she disagreed with and giving her counter-arguments. The tone was personally hostile.

I seriously doubt Zieg believes his wife attacked him or even that she was actually disagreeing with him in her tongue in cheek post. I thought it was an extremely funny post and knowing Zieg, I'd be very surprised if he doesn't agree.

 

[offthewall1]

Walters reply to my previous post is not incorrect, but neither was mine. I'm well aware of the math Walter... but using the "safe" philosophy that we tend to use in all Scuba Training... I rounded up to the nearest ATM.. since anything over 50% requires a round-up.

If you were a techincal diver or for that matter SOLO... as you so noted we were not talking about here... you may do some exact math and operate based on 60-61%... but since this thread is about Open Water Divers... who likely never learned how to do these calculations, I rounded up to build in a greater safety margin for the newbies.

I agree that everything regarding the 60ft breath to the surface is arbitrary and does not apply to all. I stated and average person... some will NOT make it to the surface on a single breath from 60 ft... some WILL make it from 80 or even 100. This all depends on factors we don't know.

Why are they out of air? True that if they've simply breathed their tank down... and they can no longer demand the miniscule amount of voume remaining... they will get another breath on the way to the surface... maybe two or three depending on how deep they are.

However, if the loss of air is due to a failure (blown hose) or o-ring... it is likely any expanding air will be lost in the same way.. and there will be no more breaths to come.

As I said, I appreciate all posts... but remember where we are here... newly certified divers... not those with experience and great understanding of what we're discussing.

 

[Walter]

Walters reply to my previous post is not incorrect, but neither was mine. I'm well aware of the math Walter... but using the "safe" philosophy that we tend to use in all Scuba Training... I rounded up to the nearest ATM.. since anything over 50% requires a round-up.

It does? Then why are we using 1.6 pp of oxygen instead of 2.0 for emergency planning?

If you were a techincal diver or for that matter SOLO... as you so noted we were not talking about here... you may do some exact math and operate based on 60-61%... but since this thread is about Open Water Divers... who likely never learned how to do these calculations, I rounded up to build in a greater safety margin for the newbies.

But I never learned these calculations from diving; I learned them in elementary school. I think about the 4th grade. When you have one ratio or fraction and want to keep the same ratio, but are changing the numbers, if you know one of the new numbers you can find the other by cross multiplying. We should all have learned in our open water class that 1 ATM is added if we descend to 33 ft and that the increase in pressure is constant, we add another ATM every 33 feet. That gives us two important facts: 1. The ratio between depth and water pressure in atmospheres and 2. that ratio stays the same. With that information learned in the OW class, we can use our 4th grade math to find the pressure at any depth or the difference between pressures when changing depths. Our ratio is 1/33. The depths we are discussing are 60 feet and 80 ft. 1/33 = X/60. To cross multiply simply multiply the numerator of one fraction with the denominator of the other (in case you forgot your 4th grade math)1*60 = 60 therefore 60 = X*33. To find X simply divide 60 by 33 to get 1.8182 (I can round when appropriate). We can add 1 for the atmospheric pressure to get 2.8182, but since we don't need the actual pressure, merely the difference between 60 ft and 80 ft, it's OK to skip that step. Repeat the process with 80 feet, we get 2.4242. Subtracting 1.8182 from we get .6060 or between 60% and 61% ATM difference in pressure. To check your work, subtract 60 from 80 giving you a difference of 20 feet. Cross multiplying with 20 feet we get a difference in pressure of .6060 (OK, .6061 if we round) for any difference in depth of 20 feet. It's not rocket science, it's math we learned in elementary school.

As I said, I appreciate all posts... but remember where we are here... newly certified divers... not those with experience and great understanding of what we're discussing.

I know exactly where we are, we all need to remember new divers are not babies, they are new to diving, not new to life and they all bring their entire life experience with them to diving. We shouldn't assume they know only what they've learned in diving classes. Even the lowest standards require a child to be at least 10 years old before learning to dive. Ten years old equates to 5th grade. There's nothing about this problem that should be beyond a 10 year old diver to figure out without being taught in a dive class.

 

[daniel1948]

I am new to diving, and having read the above I think there may also be one other element that has not been mentioned here, that is the matter of insurance, while diving in the Maldives this year I was told about a chap that had a problem during a dive at a depth that took him below the OWD dive level, he had to go into a decompression chamber at a great financial cost, which his insurance company refused to pay due to the fact he was below his limits.

Does anyone know if DAN denies coverage on an accident where the diver exceeded the depth for his or her level of certification?

I don't see how that's any excuse for not being able to self-rescue.

There are people who do dives from which nobody can self-rescue. I've been reading about deep diving, where accidents often prove fatal.

This is an interesting topic. In my opinion the OP made a responsible choice. He was faced with a few options. Not do the dive at all, dive to 80 feet as part of the group feeling uneasy about it, or dive to 80 feet with a private DM as his buddy watching over him the whole dive.

I think both the option of not doing the dive or the option of the private DM are the two responsible choices out of the three. The OP knew that going deeper so soon after certification added on some new challenges and new risks. So he took the initiative to give himself some added security and in the end gained some valuable experience.

New experiences are part of the fun at diving. However they must be approached with caution. I think the decision to make the dive with a private DM was a good one. My opinion would be different though if he made the dive just as part of the group.

Actually, my first post concerned the dive in Belize immediately following my OW certification. What I did not mention in that post (sorry) was that the DM told us we were going to 80 feet as we were in the boat on our way to the dive. But my buddy was the highly-experienced co-owner of the resort, who is an intelligent and responsible person.

It was on my next (and most recent) dive trip to Cozumel, where I arrived with 8 total dives (OW class plus 4 more) when I paid for a private DM.

As other have mentioned blind trust in a DM can also be risky so in this case it would have been prudent of the OP to have asked various people who know the DM and the DM himself as to his own experience and opinions on what makes a safe dive. I'm not sure if this was done or not but believe it to be a important part of the decision to make the dive or not.

I did not specifically ask about the DM's experience. In Belize I had known the person who was my buddy for several days. In Cozumel I had researched the dive shop, and they had consistently high marks for professionalism from reviewers.

To conclude I also believe there is a tendency in Cozumel (from my bery limited experience there) that some ops and DM's are a little too quick to allow divers to do dives that they may not be entirely comfortable with. While I was there a couple weeks ago we ran into a couple who was told that they were good to come with a group of us that was headed to do Devils Throat which has a swim through at 130 feet. The were on the dives with us the previous day to 80 feet at the Santa Rosa wall and did fine so the DM said they were good to come with us to 130 feet when this would have been about their 4th or 5th dive after their OW. They were clear to the DM about their limited experience and the DM simply replied I saw you do OK at 80 you'll be fine at 130. This surprised me as that DM has no idea about how this couple may react to such a depth where narcosis is a major concern and was so nonchalant about letting them join us on the dive.

Mexico has very different attitudes about risk-taking. I suppose that whether this is good or bad depends on our own risk-taking attitudes.

I seriously doubt Zieg believes his wife attacked him or even that she was actually disagreeing with him in her tongue in cheek post. I thought it was an extremely funny post and knowing Zieg, I'd be very surprised if he doesn't agree.

I was not aware that Ana and Zieg are a couple. But I still think that comments like "You don't know what you're talking about" and "Your ideas have no place here" were inappropriate in this forum. If they are a couple those comments might have been better spoken at home.

 

[Dtaine]

There are people who do dives from which nobody can self-rescue. I've been reading about deep diving, where accidents often prove fatal.

I've read plenty about deep diving - I'd love to know what dives you're talking about.

If a technical diver's doubles manifold fails and causes a loss of all backgas (incredibly unlikely) they can still ascend using their stage/deco mixes. If their wing fails they can ascend using the drysuit. I haven't heard of any single failure that results in the inability to self-rescue.

Perhaps you can enlighten me.

 

[offthewall1]

It does? Then why are we using 1.6 pp of oxygen instead of 2.0 for emergency planning?



But I never learned these calculations from diving; I learned them in elementary school. I think about the 4th grade. When you have one ratio or fraction and want to keep the same ratio, but are changing the numbers, if you know one of the new numbers you can find the other by cross multiplying. We should all have learned in our open water class that 1 ATM is added if we descend to 33 ft and that the increase in pressure is constant, we add another ATM every 33 feet. That gives us two important facts: 1. The ratio between depth and water pressure in atmospheres and 2. that ratio stays the same. With that information learned in the OW class, we can use our 4th grade math to find the pressure at any depth or the difference between pressures when changing depths. Our ratio is 1/33. The depths we are discussing are 60 feet and 80 ft. 1/33 = X/60. To cross multiply simply multiply the numerator of one fraction with the denominator of the other (in case you forgot your 4th grade math)1*60 = 60 therefore 60 = X*33. To find X simply divide 60 by 33 to get 1.8182 (I can round when appropriate). We can add 1 for the atmospheric pressure to get 2.8182, but since we don't need the actual pressure, merely the difference between 60 ft and 80 ft, it's OK to skip that step. Repeat the process with 80 feet, we get 2.4242. Subtracting 1.8182 from we get .6060 or between 60% and 61% ATM difference in pressure. To check your work, subtract 60 from 80 giving you a difference of 20 feet. Cross multiplying with 20 feet we get a difference in pressure of .6060 (OK, .6061 if we round) for any difference in depth of 20 feet. It's not rocket science, it's math we learned in elementary school.



I know exactly where we are, we all need to remember new divers are not babies, they are new to diving, not new to life and they all bring their entire life experience with them to diving. We shouldn't assume they know only what they've learned in diving classes. Even the lowest standards require a child to be at least 10 years old before learning to dive. Ten years old equates to 5th grade. There's nothing about this problem that should be beyond a 10 year old diver to figure out without being taught in a dive class.

Walter... if you're trying to provoke me it won't work... now you're just being a (you know what.)

 

[Walter]

I was not aware that Ana and Zieg are a couple. But I still think that comments like "You don't know what you're talking about" and "Your ideas have no place here" were inappropriate in this forum. If they are a couple those comments might have been better spoken at home.

You wouldn't have to know that to know she wasn't attacking him, she was agreeing with him and pointing out how close minded many of the responses to his posts have been.

Walter... if you're trying to provoke me it won't work... now you're just being a (you know what.)

Why would I try to provoke you? I don't even know you. I'm merely pointing out why your reasons don't hold water. (I have no idea what you're calling me, if you want me to get it, spell it out.)