OW diver below 60 feet?

[offthewall1]

I got my PADI OW certification, and on my first dive after the course, the DM said we'd go down to 80 feet. I said that I only had OW, which he knew because this was the same place I'd just taken my OW course, and he said that's all right, no problem. I thought, maybe it's because a DM can take a diver deeper than that diver is allowed to go when just diving with another OW diver as a buddy.

On my next (and only other) dive trip, the dive shop owner said we'd be diving to 80 feet, and I again expressed my concern, as above, and he said, don't worry, no problem. We were always diving with a DM (maximum 6 divers per DM).

My question: was it really stupid of me to dive to 80 feet? Does the presence of a DM make the difference? FWIW, both times were in the Caribbean, warm water, excellent visibility, daytime dives.

I've gone back to Daniels original quote to address it very specifically.

On his first dive after OW checkouts... he advised the DM on-site that he was just certified OW. He tells us the DM knows he is PADI because he just got certified at the DM's place of employment (so there can be no mistaking that the DM may have thought he was SSI... and therefore qualified to 100ft.) The DM says "No Problem" to which I draw my first question... "No problem for who?"

Is the DM saying... "no worries... I've got your back" or is he saying no worries... you'll be fine, 60ft / 80ft... all the same." There is a big difference here...

Then he tells us he expressed concern to the shop owner... who also told him no problem. Again I ask "no problem for who?"

Daniel then asks us all if he was "stupid" for going to 80 feet. The answer from Forrest Gump kind of comes to mind... "Stupid is as Stupid does." In other words, a DM and Shop Owner have just passed on some stupid overconfidence to a diver who stupidly went beyond his level of training - and comfort. Here is why. 1. He obviously wasn't comfortable if he had to ask this question. 2. He doesn't know the answer to "does the presence of a DM make a difference?" and 3.he notes it was warm water... ecellent visibility and in the daytime... as if that is suppose to make it all better."

Now I'm not picking on you Daniel.. so please don't take this wrong. My post here is to illustrate a few things.

1. Good Instructors would have taught Daniel not to put his life in the hands of a DM... and that he should be self sufficient, dive within his own comfort zone, that accidents can happen anytime.. even in warm, clear water in the daytime.. and most importantly that the difference between 60ft and 80ft is fairly significant. In measurement terms - for all intents and purposes you've added nearly another ATM of pressure on the body. At 60 ft you are still within the 2nd ATM.. at 80ft.. you're within the 3rd.
2. Many divers considered beyond 60ft deep diving even before the agencies did... and deep diving generally involves some sort of redundant air source... be it something as simple as a spare air (which is a good choice for Caribbean travel - where daniel was) or in more localized diving - a pony bottle or doubles set up. Why you ask? Because as we teach in SOLO diving... you should not dive SOLO to depths deeper than 2X that which you can do a breath-hold dive. Our experience tells us that most average people can freedive on a breath-hold to about 30ft before they must turn around - thereby telling us that 30 feet down and 30 feet back up (60ft) is about the ascent the average person could make should they run out of air. So Daniel may make it back to the surface should he suddenly be out of air at 60 ft... but it is doubtful he would make it from 80. That extra 20 feet could be a killer - literally.

I'm literally surpised at the people on this thread telling divers there is not a significant difference between 60 and 80 ft. There is a significant difference as I've just illustrated above.

I think that PADI should examine who this DM is, who the shop owner is and let them know they are operating outside of standards and likely their Insurance Coverage. I agree that there are many rogue DM's Instructors, shop owners, resorts etc... that routinely take people beyond their training levels... and many more people are injured and die diving each year then you all know. Many from this very cause. The deaths are ruled drownings, heart attacks, air embolism etc... but the underlying cause was the diver was ill-prepared in many cases for what he/she was doing.

Most important thing I want to get across is that 60ft is not a totally arbitrary number... it has to do with one's ability to safely make it to the surface exhaling a single breath of air.... and thats all folks.

 

[Zieg]

Orange Diver, I think you should check your last post. You are citing me with a quote that I did not make.

 

[Walter]

the 'old fart' part. If I wasn't laughing so hard, I'd report the post.

Ah...well...first, she didn't call anyone an "old fart." She used the term generally and perhaps she indicated her husband might just possibly fall into that group. Next, there's a big difference between an extremely funny tongue in cheek post to point out how silly the position you appear to be supporting really is and a personal attack.

In measurement terms - for all intents and purposes you've added nearly another ATM of pressure on the body.

I don't see why 1 ATM is relevant, but just to be accurate, that's hogwash, it's really between 60% - 61% of an ATM. You are being misleading.

I'm literally surpised at the people on this thread telling divers there is not a significant difference between 60 and 80 ft. There is a significant difference as I've just illustrated above.

You've illustrated no such thing.

Many divers considered beyond 60ft deep diving even before the agencies did

What's your point? Everything is relative, I remember when I thought 30 feet was deep, that's like a 3 story building!

Because as we teach in SOLO diving...

Irrelevant, the discussion is not about solo diving.

Our experience tells us that most average people can freedive on a breath-hold to about 30ft before they must turn around - thereby telling us that 30 feet down and 30 feet back up (60ft) is about the ascent the average person could make should they run out of air.

Unless you are teaching them to hold their breath on ascent (please tell me you aren't) your point is irrelevant. When you are making an ESA as an OOA diver, you have one of two situations, you are aware you're getting your last breath and are starting up with full (or nearly full) lungs and you slowly exhale on ascent. The air in your lungs expands, keeping your lungs full for the entire trip to the surface. The other situation is you don't know your tank is empty, so you start your ESA with seemingly empty lungs and can't exhale at first. As you ascend, you learn your lungs weren't really empty because the air n your lungs expands filling your lungs, keeping your lungs full for the entire trip to the surface as you exhale. With either of these situations, the pressure surrounding you decreases and you discover your tank isn't actually empty. It held ambient pressure air (about 3.4 ATA at 80 feet) so it was empty at depth, but as you ascend ambient pressure is reduced while the air in the tank remains at 3.4 ATA. After ascending to 50 feet, the ambient pressure is reduced to 2.5 ATA giving you access to .9 ATM in the tank, enough to take a breath. At 20 feet, you'll be able to get another breath. Your analogy used to describe the limit you would impose nicely demonstrates that even if the diver exhales too quickly on ascent, he'll still have twice as much air as he needs breathing every 30 feet instead of every 60.

Most important thing I want to get across is that 60ft is not a totally arbitrary number... it has to do with one's ability to safely make it to the surface exhaling a single breath of air.... and thats all folks.

I believe it is totally arbitrary and the reasoning was developed after the fact using poor reasoning to support a position already taken.

 

[daniel1948]

I'm curious, what makes you think that was a personal attack?

She was not attacking me. She was attacking Zieg, saying personal things like "There is no room for your ideas here," and "You just don't get it," etc., rather than quoting the ideas she disagreed with and giving her counter-arguments. The tone was personally hostile.

It's easy to slip into such a tone when someone says something you believe to be harmful, but the effect of it is to direct attention away from the idea you are opposing. It's called an "ad hominum" argument and, like the reductio ad absurdum argument she used in another post (which I also called her attention to) is not a legitimate way to promote your point of view. There are rules of argumentation (rhetoric) which used to be taught in school as a fundamental part of an education, but which, sadly, no longer are.

Offthewall1: Thank you for your long and thoughtful post. At the time of the dive in question, I assumed the DM was telling me that because he (a DM) was present, the deeper dive was okay. I now believe that his attitude (right or wrong) was that (as some here have asserted) it was fine for an OW diver to go to 80 feet because (as the owner of a dive shop in Cozumel later told me) "80 feet feels no different than 60."

By then (Cozumel) however, I had pondered the whole business enough to know that I did not like the latter argument, so I had a private DM go with me for the first two days, until I felt more comfortable. To me this is significant because it meant my buddy was a highly experienced diver, and not another neophyte. As pointed out somewhere in this thread, in Cozumel, every first dive of a two-tank dive goes to 80 feet. And I saw some of the divers (perhaps more experienced ones than I) going down to what I'd estimate as 90 or 100 feet. I was careful not to go below 80.

BTW, I was taught in my OW "class" (actually private lessons) to keep a close eye on both my SPG and my depth gauge (both now incorporated in my computer, which I had in Cozumel but not in Belize). I am confident that if I run out of air it will be because of an equipment malfunction (a low probability with modern equipment properly maintained) or an accident. Not because I neglected to check. I'm actually rather obsessive-compulsive about that sort of thing.

Also, BTW, in Cozumel I ended up, on my snorkeling day, making free dives to what the snorkel guide (who was also a DM) said was 45 feet. By your formula that would mean I could make a CESA from 90 feet. Except that a safe ascent rate from a free dive is much faster than from a scuba dive, and the encumbrance of scuba gear would probably slow my ascent. And one need not think about exhaling while ascending from a free dive. So I'm back to thinking that I probably could not safely make an emergency ascent from 80 feet, but might be able to from 60 if I ignored the 60 ft/min rate.

The admonition to keep an eye on your buddy's SPG is an excellent one, which was not mentioned in my OW class, but makes a lot of sense.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think that PADI should examine who this DM is, who the shop owner is and let them know they are operating outside of standards and likely their Insurance Coverage.

Back when I was a PADI instructor I discussed this very topic with them. They didn't care.

Depth recommendations for certified divers are just that...recommendations. "Standards" apply to training. There are strict depth limits for training dives but those limits only apply when you are conducting training.

When I was teaching, I always cringed when I had an entry level student who I knew was headed for Cozumel because I knew they would be doing dives far deeper than they were trained or experienced for. Certainly it's done in many resort areas but, probably due to the nature of the most popular sites, it always seemed particularly common in Cozumel.

In any case, the agency is well aware of the dives being done and stays out of it.

 

[daniel1948]

... With either of these situations, the pressure surrounding you decreases and you discover your tank isn't actually empty. It held ambient pressure air (about 3.4 ATA at 80 feet) so it was empty at depth, but as you ascend ambient pressure is reduced while the air in the tank remains at 3.4 ATA. After ascending to 50 feet, the ambient pressure is reduced to 2.5 ATA giving you access to .9 ATM in the tank, enough to take a breath. At 20 feet, you'll be able to get another breath.

This is very interesting, and I had not thought of it before. However, I assume that if I am OOA at any depth below the surface, it is because of an equipment failure or an accident, because I carefully monitor my air.

 

[eddie the pink]

I am new to diving, and having read the above I think there may also be one other element that has not been mentioned here, that is the matter of insurance, while diving in the Maldives this year I was told about a chap that had a problem during a dive at a depth that took him below the OWD dive level, he had to go into a decompression chamber at a great financial cost, which his insurance company refused to pay due to the fact he was below his limits.

 

[bleeb]

60fpm IS a wonderful speed when everything is going well, adding deep stops is also a good habit and yes, for the last portion of the ascent 30fpm or even slower.

This comment is not entirely correct. The maximum allowable ascent rate is one of the assumptions built into the model on which whatever table or computer is being dived on. Many tables and (most?) computers use 30 fpm. If the ascent rate limits of the model are violated, risk levels will very likely be higher than what the model is based on.

For a few more details, see this thread.

 

[Dtaine]

I do think, however, that ability to self-rescue is not a suitable standard to judge by. Diving is a sport that has some risks, and the deeper you go the greater they are. At the same time, the less experience you have, the greater is your risk at any given depth. Each of us decides what risks we are willing to take. I reduce my risks by using a good regulator, by not diving alone, by diving with reputable operators, and by limiting my depth.

I don't see how that's any excuse for not being able to self-rescue.

 

[orange_diver]

Orange Diver, I think you should check your last post. You are citing me with a quote that I did not make.

apologies. i have no idea how that even happened. response was to halemano.