OW diver below 60 feet?

[ScubaSteve]

:bored2: As it turns out, this Forum may not be a safe place for New Divers and Those Considering Diving (I guess you people missed the part here about New Divers and Those Considering Diving).

 

[Web Monkey]

I have two points on this Terry. First, how do you quantify that someone feels safer than they are? Is that your judgment or theirs? Who sets those standards.

You can't quantify a feeling (well actually you sort-of can, but it's not my specialty). You can, however quantify actions, and it's not too difficult to determine if you're going on a "trust me dive" or an "I'm qualified for this dive" dive.

Secondly, I have a bunch of plastic in my dive log. None of that training that got me that plastic taught me gas planning in terms of rock bottom or turn pressures or anything other than "come back with 500 PSI."

My SSI "Deep" instructor covered gas planning, turn pressures and rock bottom, although I don't beleive he used the term "rock bottom" The next time it was covered was Deco.

Terry

 

[seaducer]

You believe that as soon as a diver is done with their initial certification, it is time to start ignoring the guidelines put in places by the Agencies and other divers to keep those very people reasonably safe.

Not trying to get too far away from the topic or start an agency bashing thread BUT, what is the big secret taught to OW divers during their one "deep" experience dive during AOW that allows them to dive to 100, or 130, versus 60?

edit to add: I don't think the agency guidelines are all that thought out in terms of what is safe at what level, but what the aggregate safety is over the whole of the diving community.

The way I look at things personally in this type of case (referring to the OP) is that most dive destinations are in water over 60 feet deep, and the ops are throwing single digit divers in way over their heads, daily. I don't as a rule advocate ignoring guidelines until you are thoroughly familiar with an activity, but in this case we would be peeing up river while trying not to get any on us. Lets try to help the new divers conduct these dives as safely as possible, knowing they are going to do them anyway.

And BTW I agree with your sentiments on the issue...

 

[orange_diver]

Terry,

You're a smart guy, and I respect your opinion. But how do you tell if you "feel safer than you actually are." How do you codify that? My point is this, maybe people should be allowed to be grown ups. If you dive past your abilities, then you pay for the errors. Nobody checks on everyone who drives once they get their license. If you make a mistake, you pay for it. JMO

While i absolutely agree that every diver, even freshly minted OW ones are fully responsible for their actions, unfortunately i or you or their "experienced buddy" can also pay for their errors if presented with a panicked OOA diver at depth.

For better or worse, a diver's actions underwater affect more than just him or her.

 

[ScubaSteve]

There is no secret. I just believe that starting to tell new divers to break the rules freely is irresponsible. That is all. I do not think I have read many words on this thread that would (as you said it) "help the new divers conduct these dives as safely as possible, knowing they are going to do them anyway".

Not trying to get too far away from the topic or start an agency bashing thread BUT, what is the big secret taught to OW divers during their one "deep" experience dive during AOW that allows them to dive to 100, or 130, versus 60?

The way I look at things personally in this type of case (referring to the OP) is that most dive destinations are in water over 60 feet deep, and the ops are throwing single digit divers in way over their heads, daily. I don't as a rule advocate ignoring guidelines until you are thoroughly familiar with an activity, but in this case we would be peeing up river while trying not to get any on us. Lets try to help the new divers conduct these dives as safely as possible, knowing they are going to do them anyway.

And BTW I agree with your sentiments on the issue...

 

[Zieg]

Actually, you brought up AOW, which has nothing to do with the OPs question.

The question was from a brand-new OW diver who did an 80' dive as his first dive after certification and wanted to know if it was a risky thing to do, even though the DM and shop owner said it was OK.

I thought it was an unnecessary risk, especially for a new diver.

While it might be fun to play "where is this topic covered?", it's completely irrelevant, since the OP has had no additional training and in fact had had no additional dives.

Terry

Technically you are right.
So we are now at the classical 'arguing semantics' phase of idiotic forum chatting.
Okay, I bite THIS time.
You stated:
"As you go deeper, the safety procedures you learned in OW class become insufficient, which is one reason for the suggested depth limit."

I asked,:
"Web, what are the additional safety procedures not taught in OW that you would need for 130'? Wait, let rephrase that question. What additional safety procedures are taught in AOW that are not taught in OW. Or perhaps you can elaborate at what depths (up to 130' so we don't get too carried away) do the safety procedures taught in OW become insufficient"

I tried to narrow down my question so you could more easily formulate a reasonable answer. But I did bring up AOW which was not in the OP's question. So point to you. Feel better? Good.

Actually I did answer the OP's question. I believe that what the OP did was safe and not an unnecessary risk. Okay, go ahead and argue 'unnecessary risk'. For that matter diving can be considered an 'unnecessary risk', so drop that one. I didn't tell the OP, nor am I insinuating that he doesn't need any additional training. Additional training is always a good thing, but "Experience is the best teacher" (Julius Caesar or one of those other Roman dudes). The OP now has additional experience and found out that he can handle 80', building his own self-confidence, enabling him to relax and absorb some of that additional training, and not be afraid that he will die if he crosses some line that someone has drawn in the water. Of course you can come up with a thousand scenarios where something could have gone wrong, resulting from lack of training, but those same scenarios could have also happened at any depth. But hey go for it. I won't stop you. And you know something else? I won't stop you from doing any kind of diving you want to do, training or no training, no matter what depth or conditions. But I might say something to the guy who says you can't.

So enough of my rambling. This has now officially become boring.

 

[orange_diver]

"Web, what are the additional safety procedures not taught in OW that you would need for 130'? Wait, let rephrase that question. What additional safety procedures are taught in AOW that are not taught in OW.

now i don't wanna get in the way of a good, entertaining, pissing match, but i will say that my AOW dive to 130', while teaching me nothing in the way of safety procedures, was a HUGE eye-opener to the effects of narcosis.

i was narcd silly out of my mind (cold socal water helps) but would not really have known if i didn't have to do math that on the surface was simple but at depth i couldn't perform at all.

so in that case, yes AOW taught me about diver safety -- not in procedure, but in awareness.

 

[Zieg]

There is no secret. I just believe that starting to tell new divers to break the rules freely is irresponsible. That is all. I do not think I have read many words on this thread that would (as you said it) "help the new divers conduct these dives as safely as possible, knowing they are going to do them anyway".

Alright, What ARE the rules?

Are OW told that they cannot dive below 60'?

Are DM's told that they cannot take an OW below 60'?

Are these rules written down? Where?


If there are these rules, then (omg) ScubaSteve001 is right and we need to prosecute these DM's and divers who are breaking them. But don't start telling me 'rules' without references and I don't care about Canada, England, or some other places. But I would go for Mexico.

 

[Diver0001]

You guys are over thinking this. There is no sense in trying to apply science to a judgment call.

Sure there are risks. There is a risk every time you get out of bed, walk up a set of stairs, drink a glass of water or cross the street. What you need to try to get across in the forums is what someone needs to see the risk for what it is, not to dissect it to the point that nobody can follow the logic.

My 2c

R..

 

[ScubaSteve]

Zeig....I lost interest in this thread quite a while ago. If you believe that a newly minted open water diver has no limits to which they should dive, then I am not going to continue discussing it. When students go through, there are discussion about how deep a new diver should go. Is it etched in stone? NO! Is it smart to tell that very same diver to ignore it? NO! Perhaps you lost sight of the fact that the OP was a brand new diver. Maybe you know the diver and their abilities to troubleshoot at depth on their very first "post cert" dive. Perhaps you just do not care. Perhaps you believe that 130' for AOW is just a bogus limit as well and tell people to dive past that. I do not know, nor do I care. All I know is that you have won....I lost interest in listening to bad advice....You and I can argue again sometime soon.