Overhauling regulators

[DA Aquamaster]

DeepScuba once bubbled...


They swear all us "Outlaws" are gonna kill ourselves. I just laugh, as their own reg tech has confided in me that I can and will do a better job than the shop ever would, for the simple reason that it's my reg, and I have all the time in the world to do it as meticulously as possible.

I have been one of Peterbuilt's best customers and have a nice assortment of SP tools. I also agree with you that a DIY'er only needs to know 1-2 regs and can get to know them extremely well and with the proper background can do better work than a shop for a variety of reasons.

Ideally, a DIY'er will have a tech that will let them watch as he rebuilds their reg and explain what he is doing and why. A couple of these sessions and a tech manual and they will be ready to try it themselves. Of course, for that very reason it is often hard to find a tech who will let you watch, let alone explain the process. It's not so much greed but rather the fine tradition we have in America of getting a lawyer and suing other people when we do something stupid. The liability issue would make me very cautious about imparting knowledge to someone I did not know extremely well. The potential for them to get it "almost" right is a little too great for my comfort level. I also have not worked on other people's regulators for liability reasons. (although that will be changing shortly.)

There is also something to be said for having to figure some of it out on your own as you can develop a very good first hand understanding of what does what and really know how the reg works rather than just following what amounts to a recipe for parts replacement.

I have done my own second stage maintainence since the mid eighties and did actually attend a class on second stage maintainence and adjustment (something that is not offerred anymore anywhere as far as I can determine.) I started doing my own first stage work after a tech in a local dive shop made a major error and was frankly just plain careless. He dropped and damaged the piston and then actually put the thing back in my regulator where it ultimately failed on a dive. It did not inspire confidence in the local shop staff. I then found and learned my stuff from a former SP tech, and like your tech, he readily admitted I knew more about my particular models of SP regs than he did.

He is now also the new SP dealer in town and he has decided that since I already know a ton about SP regs and reg repair in general that it would be well worth his time and money to take me along with him to a repair clinic in a couple weeks. So very shortly I will lose my "outlaw" status and be working as an SP tech in his shop which will also permanaently resolve my personal regulator parts problems.

 

[Genesis]

... especially a piston one, is actually LESS complicated than a kitchen faucet.

Let me simply observe that the Scubapro "Mark 10" could have been named for its parts count.

Anyone who is down in the Panhandle and would like an object demonstration is welcome to give me a holler any time. I'll strip one of mine right on my kitchen table, to the individual component, and put it back together right in front of you, all in about 10 minutes.

If that doesn't convince you how easy it is, nothing will.

 

[DeepScuba]

Crispo:

We're Canadians, we don't sue anybody. We put the blame where it belongs. IF I die from a reg failure (Not bloody likely) It'll be my own fault.

If I die from doing a poor brake job, it'll be my fault too. I'll aim for the ditch so I won't kill you too


DA:

I like being an outlaw.......it gives me status.

Just a small point. Our shop "Reg" guy is WAY more knowledgeable than me. He simply stated that I would do an equivalent or better job on my own stuff.

Anyways, I'm off to do my WIFES Mares "Brick", as we were in salt water a few weeks ago, besides it being 3 years since it's been opened, I figured it would be an easy way of getting life insurance!!!


Ooooops

 

[quimby]

It kinda frightening to me to have blind trust in anyone working on my equipt but anytime you drop in the water it takes about 5 seconds to get a idea of cracking pressure, and by opening the purge you know the quality of air flow...... Anytime or depth a hit of you purge wide open or a sharp breath tells you if it delivers as it did last time or not and thats it; no ifs or ands or buts. You know its fine or its time to go home. The engine miss that always starts when out of sight of land is something only experience can control its not rocket science, its part of self responsibility.

 

[redacted]

Do you really belive that?

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...


It's not so much greed but rather the fine tradition we have in America of getting a lawyer and suing other people when we do something stupid. The liability issue would make me very cautious about imparting knowledge to someone I did not know extremely well. The potential for them to get it "almost" right is a little too great for my comfort level. I also have not worked on other people's regulators for liability reasons. (although that will be changing shortly.)

Sure, that LDS will sell you and teach you how to use life support equipment to survive in an underwater environment, but won't teach you to service your kit --- for liability reasons!!! BS

IT THE MONEY, and the control so many LDSs want to exercise so Joe-schmoo diver has to give it to them. Real trouble is even many of them don't realize the truth any more. The truth is they expect to make more money by forcing divers to pay for service than by supporting the relatively few diver who would rather DIY.

But the cracks are growing. More and more, parts and information are becoming available thru black market, grey market, and "authorized" market sources.

Glad to hear you are moving into a "key person" position in the scuba industry. But I'm sorry to hear you piping their BS.

 

[Genesis]

Do you really think that if I let you watch me change the brakes on my car, and then you went and did yours, and screwed up, that you (or the people you hit) would be successful in suing me?

Good luck with that one.

Oh sure, you can sue. I can sue because your hair is yellow.

Whether you can win or even survive a motion for summary judgment is another matter.

I don't fix other people's regs, but I do fix my own. I'm more than happy to let anyone see just how simple they are.

What you do with that knowledge is entirely up to you.

And yes, the cracks are growing. The LDSs who are playing parrot are slowly losing their grip, and trust me - we divers WILL remember when the dam breaks wide open as to where we want to spend our money.

LDSs insult divers in this regard at their significant peril.

 

[DeepScuba]

Damn Genesis, I somehow did the wifes regs correctly again!

1st stage, 2nd, Octo, hoses, adjusted and tested, including clean up and eating dinner..4 hrs. ( I did the SPG before hand).

I'm sure I dropped some crumbs from my pizza crust, or left some greasy finger prints in there, but what the heck.......

heheheh

The wife tried it out (Land test) and she's happy. Even she could tell the difference from just 4 hours ago at 1 ATA.

No O-rings changed, just cleaned and lubed. I did change the filter (Had one from 2 years ago). Did it need it after 100 dives and 3 trips to Coz in three years? Maybe not, but the filter was getting green and she said it has been getting harder to breathe for a bit. The Octo was quite......yummy.

We'll see when she dives it next.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

awap once bubbled...
Do you really belive that?

Sure, that LDS will sell you and teach you how to use life support equipment to survive in an underwater environment, but won't teach you to service your kit --- for liability reasons!!! BS......

Glad to hear you are moving into a "key person" position in the scuba industry. But I'm sorry to hear you piping their BS.

The other day I read a post where a diver commented that if you were breathing from an air pocket in a wreck (bad idea in the first place) that it would no longer be compressed air (I guess because it is not coming from their tank), so they felt you would not have to count the time as bottom time. Really, really scary.

I really would not want to see that particular diver in a wreck and I certainly would not want to see a diver in a wreck with a reg they themselves actually worked on. They would most likely have to see if you could actually breathe out of an air pocket.

So yes....I do really believe what I said. I would not assist someone in learning how to maintain their own regs if they did not have the knowledge to "get it" and to be able to do it safely. I think being an experienced diver is a necessary condition to be a good tech, but I don't think being a good diver is sufficent to make you a good tech - there is a lot more that you need to know to successfully and safely work on your own regs.

From a malpractice standpoint, as a counselor I am held to the standard of what a competent and prudent counselor would have done in the same situation. So even if I screw up, if I screwed up the same way any other prident and competent counselor would have screwed up, I'm ok as long as I performed to the industry standard so to speak. (Whether the client died or not is oddly enough largely irrellevent.) However if I fall short of that standard, or do something strange that most other counselors would not have done, I can and most likely will lose a malpractice suit, regardless of the rightness or wrongness of it.

The same situation exists for an LDS, if they do something that is not in line with the industry standard and someone dies, they will be liable for it and will most likely lose any law suit that is filed. For example, a VIP every year is an industry standard not a DOT reg. So if a shop fills tanks with a 4 year and 11 month old VIP (performed at the last hydro test) the shop is within the DOT regs and can legally fill the tank. But they are way out of compliance with the industry standard requiring an annual VIP and would not be acting in a manner that would be considered prudent (ie: most dive shops don't do it that way.) So if it turns out the tank had an inch of water in it that rusted the bottom out of the tank causing it to explode and kill the diver, the shop will get sued and will be found liable even though they "legally" filled the tank.

The same situation exists regarding regulator repair and parts sales. The current industry standard requires that service work be performed by a factory approved tech. So if a shop or a tech moves away from this standard they are at risk regardles sof whether it was right or wrong to do so. Don't blame me I did not make the system or father a lawyer. Lawyers are about the only apex predators not endangered on this planet. Fix that problem and life would get much easier on all counts.

It is true that things are slowly changing and that some companies are making there manuals more available. Ideally, I would love to see regulator manfacturers provide certfication courses to the customers who buy their regs through approved dealers. Provided the customer passes the minimum proficency standards, the company could then sell parts to them for the specific regs that they had purchased and are approved to service and could control the number sold to limit grey market parts (example: Only one annual service kit per year, and the old parts need to be returned to the company to be eligible for parts next year.)

Just think what that would do for both sales and for brand loyalty. I suspect the first company that does this will make a killing, particularly among tech divers who, on average, own a bunch of regs and would see a good deal of benefit in doing their own service work for a variety of reasons.

The LDS would also not be adversely impacted as they would make up for lost service work by providing the customer tech training and would make money off the parts sales, not to mention the additional regulator sales that would occur as a result of the customer tech training program.

For many mechanically inclined divers, it would be a great incentive to buy from an approved dealer and would in those cases make mailorder sales much less attractive. In short, it would create a situation where everybody could win.

 

[Genesis]

..you (conveniently?) forgot about the stack of brake pads at the local AutoZone.

Let me guess - you run or work at a LDS? More (illegal?) tying arrangements?

 

[quimby]

I really would not want to see that particular diver in a wreck and I certainly would not want to see a diver in a wreck with a reg they themselves actually worked on. They would most likely have to see if you could actually breathe out of an air pocket.

He could have just completed his regulator technician courses how would anyone know. You stated you worked on your own and I have for over 35yrs. A famous prof once bubbled " at best its kitchen science not rocket science" , now who was that......

.

Just think what that would do for both sales and for brand loyalty. I suspect the first company that does this will make a killing, particularly among tech divers who, on average, own a bunch of regs and would see a good deal of benefit in doing their own service work for a variety of reasons.

Diverite already does that parts are listed on their web site and so is the manual in pdf format and abyss also lists and sells their parts kits and info. So I guess the lds aspect is considerable less defensible

Got to agree with genesis also about them there brake parts, kinda makes me think we make mountains out of mole hills huh