Orange Grove fatality?

[cerich]

Some want to blame his instructor, who wasn't even there. .

BTW @cerich, suicide jumps will be the term I use from now on. Good job.

I haven't seen anybody, on SB or elsewhere try to blame the instructor (whoever that is, haven't even heard) Not saying there isn't some backroom chatter that you may be privy to that I am not but... While I can certainly imagine some cave instructors to teach less than...comprehensibly, and pass people that are less than competent it would be a stretch that any instructor would have left a student with the impression or indeed not warned against some of the multiple issues that plagued this dive and ultimately killed one diver.

Yeah, suicide jump really does have a ring to it...

 

[rjack321]

25mins at 100ft without looking at the spg?

Interesting.

On the surface afterwards she was convinced the SPG was broken. Claimed she checked her isolator on the bottom and again on the surface afterwards - convinced it was open. Got the doubles all the way into the boat before I grabbed the knob myself cause I remained skeptical - although I have seen a "stuck" SPG once in 2 decades of diving. Nope not stuck.

I know there's this attitude that SM isn't really all that harder than doubles to manage gas with. But for some divers doubles, larger volume, a small amount of narcosis, some nervousness etc all add up to it being a bit overwhelming already. I don't know what happened in this case but clearly it was something roughly similar and the deceased didn't know or couldn't access gas remaining. Did that happen after the panic? or before and trigger the panic? I doubt we'll know.

 

[rjack321]

So harsh! Am I really "beyond reasonable self reflection" just because I posited a hypothesis that you have not thought of or simply disagree with? This is precisely the kind of aggressive crap talk I'm referring to. Words like this are designed to intimidate and end "reasonable self reflection", not to encourage it. You might as well smugly refer to me as a stroke. You won't be the first or the last.

As for "blame", the diver has already accepted the sentence for his indiscretions. He's paid the ultimate price for exceeding his limits. What we're trying to do is to establish his motive. Why did he make those suicide jumps? What caused him to panic? Why was his tank turned off? Why was he so far beyond "Intro" limits? Some want to blame his instructor, who wasn't even there. Some, like myself think the community is partly to blame. Too many of us are overly interested in establishing our viewpoint as the truth rather than finding the truth. The harshness and the shaming are pretty indicative of that. Something made or enabled him do those suicide jumps. Until we understand the psychology of that, we'll keep seeing this happen over and over again.

BTW @cerich, suicide jumps will be the term I use from now on. Good job.

You're trying to divine individual motive here.

I don't think that one individual diver's motives or intentions are a fruitful line of inquiry. The fact that multiple cavern/intro level divers over a decade+ are having accidents reveals a much more systemic issue than one diver's motives.

 

[The Chairman]

You're trying to divine individual motive here.

I don't think that one individual diver's motives or intentions are a fruitful line of inquiry. The fact that multiple cavern/intro level divers over a decade+ are having accidents reveals a much more systemic issue than one diver's motives.

Perhaps they share similar motives? If you don't analyse why they are doing this, then you're simply guessing. Unfortunately, we can't ask him. But perhaps we can ask his buddy. Given the harshness displayed by the community, I doubt he'll proffer much.

 

[kensuf]

I thought that as well, but in truth (to me now at least) it is just another gear configuration that has advantages and disadvantages. For me, after I gave it a go with somebody good at it(as a gear config), SM offers more advantages than BM so I have switched over. I don't feel that the gas management is that big a deal (certainly no harder than say...ratio deco ;-) ) but it does take some practice and developing new routines, and that should happen in a fairly benign diving environment....over a period of time and series of dives.

I sometimes feel some folks (in particular those thathave been around cave diving a while) think a "sidemount" class is about getting into the tight stuff... because in the old days that is exactly what SM was, now, for most it is just a gear configuration. Diving sidemount only passage and major restrictions is far beyond what most teach in a sidemount specialty and beyond full cave as well.

Of course teaching that "yes you can fit in that but REALLY shouldn't try" is a twist to the whole teaching issue as well

Chris, I love you, but here's where we will agree to disagree. Sort of.

I will agree that sidemount is now a configuration choice. I've been on boats off of Key Biscayne, lobstering in 30' of water, and seen guys diving sidemount for those dives. If you want to tell me students should learn side mount, and do plenty of diving in that config before moving into any overhead environment, then I'd say "OK, have at it."

The problem I see is adding the complexity of sidemount to an overhead course. You're teaching two sets of skills that both have some initial task loading.

Learn one, master one, then learn the other.

Did a 25 min, 100ft wreck dive with a new (still in training) tech diver friend the other day. She finished the dive with 3400psi in her doubles. Well at least one cylinder was near full. You can easily guess why. Thankfully she finished the dive without getting into an "OAA" or swap regs scenario.

Let me make sure I understand the situation. She was completely oblivious to the fact that the pressure wasn't dropping on her pressure gauge, and she was convinced she was having a banner day with her SAC rate and not using any gas, so you believe adding in the complexity of regular reg switching will solve her problem?

Really?

Dude...

I know there's this attitude that SM isn't really all that harder than doubles to manage gas with. But for some divers doubles, larger volume, a small amount of narcosis, some nervousness etc all add up to it being a bit overwhelming already. I don't know what happened in this case but clearly it was something roughly similar and the deceased didn't know or couldn't access gas remaining. Did that happen after the panic? or before and trigger the panic? I doubt we'll know.

Interesting that one post I'm disagreeing, the next I'm agreeing..

The one serious advantage in learning to cave dive in backmount is that the transition from OW diver with a single tank strapped to their back to a thingie with two tanks strapped to their back is not that large of a mental jump and many people can handle the physical skills of the transition pretty easily.

The transition from diving with a single tank on your back to two side mount thingies that you have to "manage" and "swap" while at the same time adding in the new tasks associated with overhead diving (running a reel, following the line, awareness of direction, monitoring NDL, monitoring air consumption, maintaining proper trim, maintaining proper buoyancy control, awareness of buddy, awareness of line/T's, blind T's, jumps/Blind Jumps, etc) is just a lot to ask for some people.

 

[rjack321]

Let me make sure I understand the situation. She was completely oblivious to the fact that the pressure wasn't dropping on her pressure gauge, and she was convinced she was having a banner day with her SAC rate and not using any gas, so you believe adding in the complexity of regular reg switching will solve her problem?

Really?

Dude...
.

Nah I think SM and gauges would have made the awareness issue worse. At least with doubles all valves are on, there's only one SPG, and there's (in theory) no reg switches.

I'm saying the argument that gas management isn't "that much" harder with reg switches and 2 SPGs is all fine and dandy. Except that 1 SPG and no reg switches is already task loading for some people.

 

[tbone1004]

@kensuf if that is the case, do you really think those people are going to be able to remember how to properly isolate in doubles? If not, do you really think those people are ready to progress into a cave at this point? I'd argue watching your gas at a regular interval and changing regulators when you do it is not any real task loading compared to relying on their ability to know when to isolate, when not to isolate, which post to shut down, etc, on top of all of the things that you have listed. If they can't do that, then I'd argue they aren't ready to cave dive period, whether in a single, doubles, or sidemount

 

[cerich]

Chris, I love you, but here's where we will agree to disagree. Sort of.

I will agree that sidemount is now a configuration choice. I've been on boats off of Key Biscayne, lobstering in 30' of water, and seen guys diving sidemount for those dives. If you want to tell me students should learn side mount, and do plenty of diving in that config before moving into any overhead environment, then I'd say "OK, have at it."

The problem I see is adding the complexity of sidemount to an overhead course. You're teaching two sets of skills that both have some initial task loading.

Learn one, master one, then learn the other.

I actually believe that when teaching cave...I should be teaching...CAVE not BM, not SM, not trim and buoyancy and not propulsion techniques (except for going into anti silting technique in depth). What that means is that GUE got it right with the need for fundies. If a student on a cave class isn't sorted with whatever config they want to do the course in...well we need to fix that first.

So from that context..BM or SM, the student should already be comfortable and competent in whatever they are diving on the course...before the course.

 

[kensuf]

Nah I think 2 SM and gauges would have made the awareness issue worse. At least with doubles all valves are on, there's only one SPG, and there's (in theory) no reg switches.

I'm saying the argument that gas management isn't "that much" harder with reg switches and 2 SPGs is all fine and dandy. Except that 1 SPG and no reg switches is already task loading for some people.

Agreed!

@kensuf if that is the case, do you really think those people are going to be able to remember how to properly isolate in doubles? If not, do you really think those people are ready to progress into a cave at this point? I'd argue watching your gas at a regular interval and changing regulators when you do it is not any real task loading compared to relying on their ability to know when to isolate, when not to isolate, which post to shut down, etc, on top of all of the things that you have listed. If they can't do that, then I'd argue they aren't ready to cave dive period, whether in a single, doubles, or sidemount

Will they be able to isolate in doubles? Hopefully.

But even if they cannot, let's be honest about something.

For a diver with a buddy, diving to 1/6ths of their gas, is a "manifold failure" of any sort (reg, burst disk, tank neck o-ring, manifold barrel o-ring, etc) really a life threatening situation? No, it's not, because even if they cannot successfully perform a shut-down, their buddy should have more than ample gas to get them out.

How many "manifold failures" have caused a fatality? ZERO.

For YEARS there was no such thing as an isolation manifold and during that time, no one ever died because of a manifold failure.


Now let's talk about the real risk with isolation manifolds. @rjack321 gave a great story about it, and I've seen it happen first hand, and people have died from it, so it is a real risk.

That real risk is having the isolator completely closed and being oblivious to that fact.

I'm a firm believer that beginning tech divers (intro to cave, brand new AN/DP, etc) should be in the habit of having their isolator valve at the mid-point during the dive. Several newer divers get confused between open/closed on the isolator, and by leaving it at the midway point that should give a reasonable expectation of gas flowing between the two cylinders.

I make all of my students do a valve drill as part of their S-drill, and for beginning levels I require they do the mid-point and I explain in excruciating detail why.

Now that we've addressed the real risk with manifolds, let me ask -- how many people have died by cocking up reg switches when diving side-mount?

I know of at least three, and suspect there are more than that...

 

[rjack321]

@kensuf if that is the case, do you really think those people are going to be able to remember how to properly isolate in doubles? If not, do you really think those people are ready to progress into a cave at this point? I'd argue watching your gas at a regular interval and changing regulators when you do it is not any real task loading compared to relying on their ability to know when to isolate, when not to isolate, which post to shut down, etc, on top of all of the things that you have listed. If they can't do that, then I'd argue they aren't ready to cave dive period, whether in a single, doubles, or sidemount

Except they basically never have to isolate. People aren't dying from manifold or tank failures. They can basically forget all the failures except left and right reg failures and never be the wiser (as long as the isolator is open). Not that this good or appropriate, just that it can silently happen and not cause fatalities.

SM divers have to switch and monitor all the time. The consequences of screwing it up are constant. And at least now we have a case of a diver dying with enough gas to exit still available. I can't recall a single case of a backmount diver dying due to a OOA from a closed isolator.