Orange Grove fatality?

[kensuf]

Possibly. But only if the isolator is open and even then you still might have to change regs. Panic is it's own narcosis. Once it sets in, you become dumber than a box of hammers.

You think that somehow side mount led to the demise of this diver. That's your choice. I'm going to blame the blind jumps and subsequent blind panic.

I actually due believe that sidemount was a contributory cause. My reasons:

1. Task loading is higher in new sidemount divers. New cave divers are already task loaded just by the nature of being in the cave (where's the line, how's my trim / buoyancy, how's my buddy, how much air do I have, how far am I in the cave) that adding the task loading of reg switching is just putting more fuel into a fire.

2. If he was in backmount, there would have been no need to swap regs.

Look, I'll dive sidemount when I need to, but sidemount is an advanced form of cave diving to get into smaller/tight passages with no-mount restrictions -- that is not appropriate for beginning cave divers.

Just calling it like I see it.

 

[kensuf]

I have seen many BM divers (not all students either) jump in with a valve shut, isolator shut and have issues because of it. You are blaming SM for something that also happens in BM.

As we're walking to the water, I always tell my students the story about Trey giant striding in at P1 with his valves off. I use it as a teaching point.

 

[kensuf]

How about we start calling them "dead diver jumps", or "suicide jumps"

When did "blind jumps" even become part of the vocab? I mean seriously... visual jumps are are bad enough because the whole "visual" thing isn't a promise let alone the divers navigation and memory (it is amazing how a different angle can make a cave look like a different one altogether)

"Suicide Jumps!" I love it. I'm adding it to my lexicon.

 

[cerich]

, but sidemount is an advanced form of cave diving to get into smaller/tight passages with no-mount restrictions -- that is not appropriate for beginning cave divers.

Just calling it like I see it.

I thought that as well, but in truth (to me now at least) it is just another gear configuration that has advantages and disadvantages. For me, after I gave it a go with somebody good at it(as a gear config), SM offers more advantages than BM so I have switched over. I don't feel that the gas management is that big a deal (certainly no harder than say...ratio deco ;-) ) but it does take some practice and developing new routines, and that should happen in a fairly benign diving environment....over a period of time and series of dives.

I sometimes feel some folks (in particular those thathave been around cave diving a while) think a "sidemount" class is about getting into the tight stuff... because in the old days that is exactly what SM was, now, for most it is just a gear configuration. Diving sidemount only passage and major restrictions is far beyond what most teach in a sidemount specialty and beyond full cave as well.

Of course teaching that "yes you can fit in that but REALLY shouldn't try" is a twist to the whole teaching issue as well

 

[rjack321]

2. If he was in backmount, there would have been no need to swap regs.

Did a 25 min, 100ft wreck dive with a new (still in training) tech diver friend the other day. She finished the dive with 3400psi in her doubles. Well at least one cylinder was near full. You can easily guess why. Thankfully she finished the dive without getting into an "OAA" or swap regs scenario.

 

[PfcAJ]

Did a 25 min, 100ft wreck dive with a new (still in training) tech diver friend the other day. She finished the dive with 3400psi in her doubles. Well at least one cylinder was near full. You can easily guess why. Thankfully she finished the dive without getting into an "OAA" or swap regs scenario.

25mins at 100ft without looking at the spg?

Interesting.

 

[cerich]

Did a 25 min, 100ft wreck dive with a new (still in training) tech diver friend the other day. She finished the dive with 3400psi in her doubles. Well at least one cylinder was near full. You can easily guess why. Thankfully she finished the dive without getting into an "OAA" or swap regs scenario.

I was once on a boat off NY...first batch of divers were on the wreck 170 ft below and I was getting ready when all of a sudden some guy in doubles breaks teh surace like a trident missile... I jump and and swim over to him (the water was cold), grabbed him and started to swim him back to the boat...he was a bit freaked out. I asked him what happened "I ran out of gas! I did a cesa from the bottom, oh god, I'm gonna get bent!" I looked at his spg with 3200 psi or so...and opened his isolator and made it "sing"..anyway ended up hanging with him at 20 ft on Oxygen for a while, and he never showed any symptoms of being bent (which given he did just shy of 20mins at 170 followed by a freak out assent is a miracle by itself).

I once did a dive where I was at around 190 and about 15mins in on double 80's when I looked at my SPG and saw 3000 still, and instantly knew I was a moron..and tried to crack my isolator so it didn't sing...it did... :-( (this was maybe 4-5 years earlier than the above incident, where while I thought he was silly for not checking his gas until he ran out I did somewhat "get it")

anyhow... I really don't think that doubles are that much inherently more likely to be completely "on" than SM...

 

[cerich]

25mins at 100ft without looking at the spg?

Interesting.

little long but... I check my pressure normally on the way down then because my SAC is pretty consistent and I have planned it so it may be another 10-15 before I check...which is just to verify that my gas consumption is as planned/predicted.

 

[The Chairman]

Your blame accomplishes absolutely nothing. If you really think that Intro level divers are doing blind jumps to hide evidence that they are off the mainline so they don't get shamed after the fact you really are beyond reasonable self reflection.

So harsh! Am I really "beyond reasonable self reflection" just because I posited a hypothesis that you have not thought of or simply disagree with? This is precisely the kind of aggressive crap talk I'm referring to. Words like this are designed to intimidate and end "reasonable self reflection", not to encourage it. You might as well smugly refer to me as a stroke. You won't be the first or the last.

As for "blame", the diver has already accepted the sentence for his indiscretions. He's paid the ultimate price for exceeding his limits. What we're trying to do is to establish his motive. Why did he make those suicide jumps? What caused him to panic? Why was his tank turned off? Why was he so far beyond "Intro" limits? Some want to blame his instructor, who wasn't even there. Some, like myself think the community is partly to blame. Too many of us are overly interested in establishing our viewpoint as the truth rather than finding the truth. The harshness and the shaming are pretty indicative of that. Something made or enabled him do those suicide jumps. Until we understand the psychology of that, we'll keep seeing this happen over and over again.

BTW @cerich, suicide jumps will be the term I use from now on. Good job.

 

[The Chairman]

25mins at 100ft without looking at the spg?

Interesting.

I've seen the very thing happen and the diver looked at their SPG often. It was her first time in doubles and she was ecstatic at the increase in gas supply. At 100 ft, narcosis makes it nigh impossible to be completely reasonable or deductive. She was properly embarrassed when I asked her if her isolator was open or closed. I doubt she's ever made that mistake again.