Opinions please...

[lmwb_1977]

I have notices since I was certified that too many divers ignore there certification levels and skill sets when diving certain places. I have noticed this at every place I have ever dove.

For example...open water cert diving past 60ft. Advanced open water divers going past 130ft. Divers letting their computer go into deco.

Why have so many divers forgotton or chose to ignore what limitations they have with their certification level?

If someone is curious why I am starting this thread, then read some of the discussions on Belize and diving the blue hole. I am just amazed at what some divers are saying and doing. We had open water cert divers in belize diving the blue hole, which is a 130ft dive. And, the DM allowed the divers to go into deco . I just don't understand how divers become so irresponsible.

The blue hole isn't the only place I have noticed this. In Washington, there is a dive at deception pass that has a nine minute slack, it is a dry suit dive, and extremely advanced. If you get caught in this dive past the slack, you are in big trouble. My instructor told a story of how the current pushed him to the bottom and he almost could not crawl his way out due to such extreme currents. I have known many divers get into trouble here because they should not have been diving in the first place here.

I am curious what all of you have to say on this topic.

Denise

Well one thing that was ingrained in me was to "Dive within my limits" yes that includes "dive within my certification" although I do not always, due to the buddies Ive had and the fact that I am in tune with my personal limits I have gone outside my C card ,granted not to the extent of what your expressing but sorry there are no scuba police ready to arrest me when at a site Im familiar with I go to 76 feet. I agree with Mack on the experience and instruction aspect but also think that experience depending on who one is with and how one progresses is instruction as well. I dive with 2 people in perticular that regardless if its for recreation I tend to learn as if I were in a class setting, because thats thier "sport personality" and personally I learn better that way.

I cant comment on the divers you talked about because that is outside my limits and it is not something I would do. However I have dived at night, Ive dived wrecks and a few other things that PADI has not issued me a card for and at no time before during nor after, did I or my buddies feel I was being a wreckless diver.

Thats not to say I will not take my advanced, Im slowly moving towards tech diving and know that I have a route I must take but for now the most important thing for me is to dive, the more I dive the more I understand my body in relation to my gear and how we (me and the gear) react to the surroundings. A diver can have thier AOW card to easy in my opinion. Just because ones taken the class and pass does not mean they have the relationship with thier gear and the water to be an adaquate AOW diver. Then again I only have 40 dives so I really shouldnt be adding to this topic because its people like me that are in the flame....

 

[ZzzKing]

And, I think it is irresposible to dive beyond your certification or experience.

I would separate certification from experience.

Certification indicates that on one or two or three days in the past you have demonstrated requisite skills and knowledge. take a diver that was certified 5 years ago and did OW, AOW and EANx over a couple of weeks or months getting ready for a vacation and hasn't dived since. would they be a safe diver at the Blue Hole in Belize? They've been certified for five years and at a level that would allow diving to 130'.

What about the experienced diver. The guy that taught Jacques Cousteau how to dive. He never saw much reason for any new fangled certification card or course. He has 15,000 dives in all kinds of conditions but didn't really worry about logging any of it except in his gray matter. He has no certifications. He's been diving since there was diving. Would he be safe at the Blue Hole?

Now think about yourself. I am not aware of your training but assuming you had AOW and Deco Procedures that would prepare you for a dive of 130-140' with some deco obligation, would you feel safe diving the Blue Hole? On a single AL80?

I did the math and decided that, for myself, there is not a sufficient safety factor doing a dive of that depth on 77cuft of air. I stayed on Ambergris and looked at the spotted eagle rays and turtles.

My main point is that certification isn't really a good means of evaluation for dive ability (although it may establish liabilty) and that even the best diver in the world should evaluate and take responsibility for their own dives and they shouldn't be expecting others to do all the math and thinking for them.

If we feel that someone is acting in an unsafe manner we can choose not to be involved by not getting on the boat or not getting in the water. That's where I draw the line. What others do is up to them and it's not my business to police them. If I were the boat operator I would definitely feel it was in my rights to do so, however because it would then be my business.

Guidelines 1, 2 and 3 of the DIMWIT Manual.

 

[k-valve]

...I think it is irresposible to dive beyond your certification or experience.

Hmm...well, I was going to stay out of this, but I just can't help myself any longer. I never was any good at keeping my mouth shut.

So...this is my question for you, blueeyz78: If you always dive within your experience how do you learn? How do you become a better diver?

My personal opinion...one that is certainly not representative of any of the certification agencies I have cards from...is that for some types of diving you should only need to become comfortable, confident and skilled at one level. Then move just slightly out of your comfort level gaining experience, confidence and fine-tune your skills as you go. I don't think you have to take every little PADI specialty to make the dives they are supposed to prepare you for. (Not intending to pick on PADI...the same holds true for all recreational agencies.) For example, does a competent diver need the Drift Diving or Boat Diving specialties? I don't think so.

On the other hand, I don't want to imply that there is no need for continued training. I think formal training is critical to learn certain skills and techniques. For example, I'd never recommend anyone jump into Cave Diving or any other type of technical diving without training.

I just don't think someone who is certified to 60' should be hung by their thumbs if they decide to try 70' when they're comfortable extending their range a little.

Well one thing that was ingrained in me was to "Dive within my limits"...

That's the name of the game...

 

[diverrex]

I have notices since I was certified that too many divers ignore there certification levels and skill sets when diving certain places. I have noticed this at every place I have ever dove. For example...open water cert diving past 60ft. Advanced open water divers going past 130ft. Divers letting their computer go into deco. Why have so many divers forgotton or chose to ignore what limitations they have with their certification level? Denise

I may be mistaken about this and if so someone please correct me and show me the exact reference, but while it's believed by some and perhaps implied in at least some PADI literature that OW qualifies you to only go to 60 fsw, AOW to 100 fsw and the Deep specialty certification to 130 fsw, as I carefully read the PADI literature those are not hard and fast rules, but guidelines only and the more important criteria is diving within your experience level, thus it's entirely acceptable within the PADI system for a properly experienced OW diver to go past 60, even to 130.

And for those that couldn't care less about PADI or other agencies, see the posts below,

 

[Thalassamania]

I have done many dives to depths beyond 60 feet (unsupervised :11 with only an Open Water card. The operators did not question my abilities; it was obvious that I was cabable of the dive.
Personally, I am very glad there are no Scuba Police out there.

Gasp! Say it isn't so, say it isn't so.

I would separate certification from experience.

May I repeat?

I would separate certification from experience.

I may be mistaken about this and if so someone please correct me and show me the exact reference, but while it's believed by some and perhaps implied in at least some PADI literature that OW qualifies you to only go to 60 fsw, AOW to 100 fsw and the Deep specialty certification to 130 fsw, as I carefully read the PADI literature those are not hard and fast rules, but guidelines only and the more important criteria is diving within your experience level, thus it's entirely acceptable for a properly experienced OW diver to go past 60, even to 130.

Who cares what the wonks say? See ZzzKing(above).

 

[adurso]

For example...open water cert diving past 60ft. Advanced open water divers going past 130ft. Divers letting their computer go into deco.

Why have so many divers forgotton or chose to ignore what limitations they have with their certification level?

I did not get "certified" until shops started pestering me for a card when I traveled. As a kid I routinely dove past 130 ft., following navy tables for deco then as an adult dove well past that using gas mixes cooked up in my buddy's garage, without a "certification".

There are no scuba police; there are no limitations with certification level, there are suggestions and guidelines that may be followed by those who choose to do so.

Now if you are asking why people dive without proper planning, accidently incur a deco obligation, or commit a multitude of other sins ahving nothing to do with a certification......I do not worry about the "whys" of other folk's behaviors....

 

[ZzzKing]

Gasp! Say it isn't so, say it isn't so.


May I repeat?

Who cares what the wonks say? See ZzzKing(above).

You do me great honor, sir!

 

[richerso]

Now you've done it Thalassamania ! ! !

You've given zzzKing a big head! Geez! We just got his head back down to normal size too! Now we have to start all over!

 

[Thalassamania]

He was headed that way in any case.

 

[scubashawn123]

.

I am curious what all of you have to say on this topic.

Denise

Hi Denise,

I am not sure what all the topics are.

Let's take your deco issue. I need a lot more information as to the details of the dive, did they plan their dive, dive their plan and run into any other issues that would have caused a deco situation. It is good that all divers are aware of doing deco stops as required no matter what certification you are. If you have air, and your computer puts you in deco, that means hang tight, watch your air, and degass per your computers programming. If you do a safety stop for 3 minutes on every dive, then that's a deco stop is it not? IF so, who cares what certification you are since preventing "the bends" is really the risk you are trying to mitigate as any diver new or old when you decompress, is not every dive a decompression dive>?

For me it has nothing to do with certification and everything to do with study, learning, reading, talking, more studying and practice. Diving is about diving. The more practice the better the skills.

20 years ago it was not like this with all the specialty classes and such. You planned, practiced and dove.
You just did it. No one I dove with got hurt either.

Now:

What's your other topics to share opinions of?



Shawn O'Shea