Open Water Instructor Control: Hand Swimming/Sculling

[fire_diver]

No, of course not. I didn't say it would be for free. If someone needs a lot of remedial time then they have to pay for it.

R..

So then you agree with me 100% and all your bitching and moaning has just been to create argument?

 

[Diver0001]

So then you agree with me 100% and all your bitching and moaning has just been to create argument?

I think you must be confusing two things.

Point #1 is that I believe if the student gives up that's their prerogative. I don't believe that it's fair of instructors to refuse to continue training someone who doesn't want to quit (ie. to "fail" them)

Point #2 is, of course, that if pools need to be rented and instructors need to be paid that it's not fair of the student to expect everyone to do all of that for free if they really need a lot of time.

I really don't understand why you think it should be necessary for it to be "free of charge" in order to be correct.

I'm not looking for an argument. I'm just laying out what i believe to be an important distinction. There *are* instructors out there who pride themselves on "failing" a certain percentage of their students and believe that it says something about the quality of their course. The point I started out to make what that it says something about the quality of "instruction".

That said, Trace already responded that this isn't what he meant so we're off in a side-bar here and running the risk of derailing his thread. I think it's best if we got back on topic now.

R..

 

[fdog]

I guess my question for all you advanced techie types out there is, "are hand movements less effective for maneuvering?"

I know that for myself, I can quickly get myself moving backward much more easily with my hands than I can with my attempts at a back kick, and while I can probably turn just as effectively using helicopter turns, I can do it quickly and easily with my hands as well.

As for swimming, I broke myself of that habit some time ago. I think it goes without saying that that is inefficient, but I'm a little skeptical that I'd actually see any difference in my sac rate or any significant improvement in maneuverability if I stopped using my hands entirely.

Well, I certainly wouldn't consider myself an advanced techie type...

However, I know that I just think backwards, or think pivot, and it just happens. No hands involved, and if I tried to do the same thing with my hands, it would be slower, less powerful, and more of a commotion.

Clip on a couple of stages and a scooter, and it is even more apparent that hands are less effective.

I mean, in the OP as Trace posted it, you all know what was being asked: is the instructor candidate a hummingbird? Not an incidental wave of the hand.

All the best, James

 

[FireInMyBones]

...I know that I just think backwards, or think pivot, and it just happens. No hands involved...

I wish I could do that. I still fumble a bit with the back kick, but I hope I can get to the point of think=do. Probably low dive number.

I mean, in the OP as Trace posted it, you all know what was being asked: is the instructor candidate a hummingbird? Not an incidental wave of the hand.

Hummingbird? I would request another instructor.

 

[Teamcasa]

...My curiosity is how many SB participants believe that an instructor candidate should not be awarded a "pass" and the instructor rating while displaying hand swimming and/or sculling.

Depends on how good he was at it.

 

[eponym]

To coincide with the poll and questions regarding hand swimming and open water divers, let me ask divers should agency standards require that hand swimming and sculling result in open water instructor course failure?

I can imagine an instructor course which includes as one prerequisite (among many) the ability to dive (maneuver, hover) without using hands. The pre-course evaluation dives would identify acceptible candidates. The other applicants would be given detailed feedback and asked to work on their skills before reapplying.

In other words, this should not be an issue by the time the instructor course begins. I can dream, can't I?

-Bryan

 

[TSandM]

Personally, I think that any use of hands (other than student control) should indicate that a candidate for professional credentials needs more work.

Sculling with fins can be a result of borrowed equipment and inadequate time to fine-tune weighting, so if it isn't severe, I'd overlook it. (You should have seen me sculling and flailing on the first dive of the second day of my Full Cave class, when the rental place didn't have the right weights for me, and I had to make do.)

 

[Peter Guy]

Trace -- I misunderstood the question and voted 180 degrees from what I believe!

Rob -- I see absolutely no problem with FAILING your IE for this, that or the other thing. It IS an Exam/Evaluation, not a training.

In a prior post I expressed amazement that the CD exam (course, whatever) did not appear to have any evaluation based on actual diving skill. My IE, quite frankly, did not appear to have any significant evaluation based on actual diving skill. I believe instructors should not be "ordained" without showing at least "Fundies Level" diving skills.

While there are always times when a diver might wish/need to use their hands, they should only be used deliberately and not as a normal, unconscious, part of swimming.