Open Water Certifications – Cold vs Warm

[lowviz]

...//... Even if it were a good idea to have two different certifications (and I don't think it is) ...//...

I don't think so either, it is covered by "conditions in which you were trained".

...//... I think it would be an absolute nightmare to define and regulate.

I take pictures underwater but don't have a c-card for that. Now I'm getting worried...

 

[billt4sf]

This is absolutely true and demonstrable ... all one needs to do is take an experienced diver with excellent diving and awareness skills and hand him a camera ...

What makes Fundies successful is that (a) they have a systemized approach to not just learning the concepts of situational awareness, but practicing skills that enhance its development, and (b) if you don't put sufficient effort into developing the skills to a practiceable level you won't pass the class.

You really can't do that with an OW student ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'm not proposing Fundies as a solution to the warm water / cold water issue.

I am saying that I believe that the typical classes don't address the concept of situational awareness very much, and this could be easily handled by (as you suggested) handing an OW student a camera. Or giving her thick gloves. Or a thicker wetsuit and more weight, etc. etc. Easy to do and it should illustrate the point really well to most students.

"The Point" being that, when you change your environment, the diving is going to be unexpectedly different, and students need to have some experience of that. If the OW / AOW classes did this, the "issue" of a separate cert for cold water goes away. And is replaced by a much more important awareness.

- Bill

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

My original post was intended to point out my personal opinion that it is both easier and safer to make the transition from cold to warm than the reverse. My comment suggesting separate certifications was probably a bit overboard.

Two people take an OW course. One in 82 degree tropical water in Bonaire and one in 50 degree water Puget Sound. The two people are identical in every possible way. Other than the water temperature, the environmental conditions such as visibility, current, surge, surface, entry, exit...etc..are identical. The instructor is the same person. Other than discussions or use of warm water vs cold water equipment, the entire course including academics and confined water sessions are identical. Both divers enjoy their dives exactly equally and both have exactly the same amount of bottom time. Both certify.

Now, the Bonaire certified diver flys to Puget Sound and rents all appropriate equipment to go diving. The Puget Sound certified diver flys to Bonaire and rents all appropriate equipment to go diving. Both divers will be diving in the exact conditions and equipment that the other was certified in.

Of these two divers, which one is less likely to have any problems?

 

[gcarter]

Within the topic of this thread, it does not matter what any one of us thinks is a personal cold tolerance. If people want to have two different certifications, one for cold water and one for warm water, they are going to have to define the terms in ways that can be applied to the standards. If a temperature cutoff is defined, then all my other questions are pertinent as well. If you can answer those, I have a bunch more.

Even if it were a good idea to have two different certifications (and I don't think it is), I think it would be an absolute nightmare to define and regulate.

I have a cold water certification - FQAS. FQAS --> Accueil

 

[Quero]

Two people take an OW course. One in 82 degree tropical water in Bonaire and one in 50 degree water Puget Sound. The two people are identical in every possible way. Other than the water temperature, the environmental conditions such as visibility, current, surge, surface, entry, exit...etc..are identical. The instructor is the same person. Other than discussions or use of warm water vs cold water equipment, the entire course including academics and confined water sessions are identical. Both divers enjoy their dives exactly equally and both have exactly the same amount of bottom time. Both certify.

Now, the Bonaire certified diver flys to Puget Sound and rents all appropriate equipment to go diving. The Puget Sound certified diver flys to Bonaire and rents all appropriate equipment to go diving. Both divers will be diving in the exact conditions and equipment that the other was certified in.

Of these two divers, which one is less likely to have any problems?

They are both likely to have problems. Different problems, but problems nonetheless. Because I work at a warm water, tropical, exotic location, I see just as many cold-water-trained newbies show up as newbies trained right here. The cold-water trained newbies have problems that the locally-trained newbies don't have, and in fact if one were judging solely by the competence of the "imported" cold-water newby compared to the locally-trained newby, one would conclude that cold-water trained newbies were deficient. I'm certain that if the situation were reversed a similar result would ensue. It doesn't take more than a dive or two for things to even out, though, as long as the basic dive skills are in place.

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

They are both likely to have problems. Different problems, but problems nonetheless. Because I work at a warm water, tropical, exotic location, I see just as many cold-water-trained newbies show up as newbies trained right here. The cold-water trained newbies have problems that the locally-trained newbies don't have, and in fact if one were judging solely by the competence of the "imported" cold-water newby compared to the locally-trained newby, one would conclude that cold-water trained newbies were deficient. I'm certain that if the situation were reversed a similar result would ensue. It doesn't take more than a dive or two for things to even out, though, as long as the basic dive skills are in place.

Fair enough....I agree that both may have problems.

But.... I remain convinced that ALL other things being equal, that the diver originally trained in cold water now going to warm water is LESS likely to have problems than the reverse.

 

[TMHeimer]

Initial problems, so to speak, with equipment may be an issue first time at a cold locale. As Quero says, a dive or two (should....) straighten that out. I could possibly agree with Scubadog in that it may be more likely for new divers going warm to cold to have some problems. But perhaps it is because there are poorly trained divers in both climates. A poorly trained cold diver going warm may have fewer problems because there are fewer equipment problems to be had. --ei no wetsuit compression, less weight, etc. I know the question deals with training and everything else being equal, but this may explain some things? A well trained diver should adapt pretty quickly.

 

[DevonDiver]

I am saying that I believe that the typical classes don't address the concept of situational awareness very much, and this could be easily handled by (as you suggested) handing an OW student a camera. Or giving her thick gloves. Or a thicker wetsuit and more weight, etc. etc. Easy to do and it should illustrate the point really well to most students.

For a novice/trainee diver, 'handing them' a BCD, reg, mask and fins tends to cause sufficient task loading to significantly decrease situational awareness. Over the duration of OW training, that situational awareness improves as task loading decreases with familiarity.

Beyond OW training, most continued education courses tend to provide the task-loading stimulus you are suggesting. The AOW course, in particular, does a very good job at providing a graduated increase in task loading.

Adding any equipment, environmental or activity-related supplemental demand to the list of the diver's in-water responsibilities will cause an increase in task loading. The diver needs to concentrate on the new demand/s, causing any weaknesses in their existing core skill-set to become apparent. That presents itself as a degradation in their overall dive performance. As they adjust to the new level of task-loading, their performance improves.

If the OW / AOW classes did this,....

I believe they do...

Two people take an OW course. One in 82 degree tropical water in Bonaire and one in 50 degree water Puget Sound. ...identical in every possible way. ..., the Bonaire certified diver flys to Puget Sound and rents all appropriate equipment to go diving. The Puget Sound certified diver flys to Bonaire and rents all appropriate equipment to go diving. Both divers will be diving in the exact conditions and equipment that the other was certified in.

Of these two divers, which one is less likely to have any problems?

It's a bit of a false premise to suggest that all other environmental conditions "are identical". Obviously, that creates a very biased comparison.

All things being equal, except temperature, then you have a simple balance between heavy exposure protection and light exposure protection. Between higher manual dexterity and lower manual dexterity. That is all.

In reality, all things aren't equal. Any given environment or location presents a unique pattern of conditions and demands. Water temperature is just a single one of them.

The 'list' of problems that the Puget Sound diver could encounter in Bonaire could go on for pages...

 

[Quero]

Fair enough....I agree that both may have problems.

But.... I remain convinced that ALL other things being equal, that the diver originally trained in cold water now going to warm water is LESS likely to have problems than the reverse.

As I said in my first reply to this thread, IMO this argument that cold-water training is inherently superior is a red-herring, but worse, it's a conceit. There's nothing about the water temperature that makes one diver more proficient than another. There are so many individual differences among new divers--even when they're trained in the same locale on the same days in the same conditions by the same instructor--that claiming water temperature as a contributing feature of expertise is simply nonsensical. Furthermore, a diver who is properly trained only needs a dive or two to get up to speed in new conditions, regardless of whether those new conditions involve surf entries, live-boat entries, currents, cold water, equipment changes, a new buddy, whatever.

 

[lowviz]

A novice diver, any novice diver, has a finite capability when it comes to understanding, processing, regurgitating, assimilating, and finally owning a new skill. We are pointing similar subjects in all sorts of odd directions and then trying to assess some form of fundamental 'superiority'. No such thing...