Open water + advanced in one go?

[OceanEd]

SSI has a different definition for their AOW class than PADI and a different goal. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Both are trying to promote that the new divers stay with an instructor for a longer period of time than the OW class so they can learn more. They are just doing it in different ways and both work.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

But the fact is a new diver should not have to stay with an instructor to do OW dives if they choose not to. They should have been given all the tools to safely plan, execute, and return from a dive and be able to extend their range and comfort level by just diving. When training is set up so that divers have to come back to learn neutral buoyancy, how to trim themselves for maximum efficiency, and how to properly weight themselves, as well as be completely comfortable diving without an instructor or DM, they are not getting what they paid for. And the instructor cannot say that he has met the goals of producing a student who can dive with an equally trained buddy in conditions equal to or better than that in which the training took place. This is the stated goal of all WRSTC member agencies and of every agency that I am aware of that may not be a member.

That we have divers coming on here asking basic questions, certified yet incapable of diving without a DM or guide, and HAVING to get more training as opposed to wanting more shows just how far away from those goals things have gotten. To say that a diver is ok even though they require the services of a DM/Guide/Instructor to keep them from killing themselves is nothing but laziness and greed.

It is even worse when a diver with an AOW card from any agency is still swimming vertically, does not know how to weight themselves, cannot perform all basic skills in midwater while hovering or swimming horizontally, and has no idea of gas management beyond "be back on the boat with 500PSI. Instructors should be ashamed of this result. Taking a student on "Advanced" dives who has not truly gotten comfortable and proficient in (mastered has been so corrupted that it means squat) the OW skills is also to me reckless, ill advised, and frankly disgusting in its open display of money over education and skills.

 

[victor]

Jim
I understand where you are coming from.
Maybe we need another definion more like "recreational diver".
This is to cover people who only dive as part of a group with a DM and tail gunner to look after them. This would cover many of the summer holiday divers on their once yearly couple of dives in warm water.
This qualification would not allow them to get tanks unless it was part of a packsge.

Others could continue their education until theyw ere qualified to plan and execute their own dives.

 

[dbulmer]

Victor,
The term "Holiday Diver" fits

 

[Kingpatzer]

My own personal view is that since there aren't things like diving clubs anymore (at least around me) that the best option for becoming the best diver I could was precisely taking a large number of classes. I approached 50 dives before I did diving on my own.

I took OW, AOW, Peak Performance Buoyancy, Search and Recovery, Ice Diving, Navigation, Deep, and Rescue pretty much one after the other. I also picked up the EFR course, all of the DAN non-professional courses, and attended a number of dive seminars. Finally, I made it a point to make friends with my instructors and class mates so that I'd have dive buddies once my classes were over.

Now, there are those who see bashing PADI as the primary reason for visiting these boards who will point to this post and say "see, that's what's wrong with PADI, OW divers should be able to do all that out of OW." However, the reality is that I was able to spread that learning out over a year, and to pick and choose what I wanted to learn.

But the key to it was that I did continue learning.

The big problem, at least in my area, with the whole "get your OW then go get 25 dives or so" is that there's not many people diving around here to start with. And those who do dive are not, in general, known to the entry divers. This makes finding more experienced divers to dive with somewhat difficult.

The alternate advice tends of "get your OW then find more experienced divers to dive with and go back after you have more dives under your belt," it is somewhat counter-productive in areas where diving tends to be less common an activity. Taking classes is a great way to get more experience diving with more experienced divers.

In my search and recovery class, for example, there where 8 students. Myself and my wife were both new divers. Then there were 2 instructors who were taking the course, some fellows who had been diving for years and wanted to start offering their services to people losing things out of their ice houses in the winter, and another couple who had also been diving for years and had decided on this particular course to round out their "master diver" requirements.

The course was taught by a CD who really demanded quite a bit from all of us. It was a great experience.

I'd say go for it. If you can get a good deal financially, then take advantage of that savings to not only get the course "done" so you can do vacation dives that require the card, but also just to get the experience and to meet some more divers in your area.

 

[OceanEd]

Jim:

I agree with some of what you are saying. The fact is that every dive industry survey I ever saw agreed that it took the average diver 9 or 10 dives to become "outwardly focused" instead of "inwardly focused". Unfortunately none of the organizations offer an entry course with 10 dives.

Another set of surveys say that if a new diver does not dive more at the very beginning, the chances of him/her quitting diving are very great. We have a tremendous "drop out rate" with new divers who we train and they never dive again.

The average diver in the USA dives approximately 6 times a year. That is not a lot of diving to gain experience and good diving skills, especially if they are not diving with someone better than they are and who is training them in how to improve.

So when you add up all the above facts, I think there is a pretty strong argument for us wanting to keep new divers close and diving with us. It not only provides much needed training, but it also provides a social atmosphere for the divers which they really want.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Actually I can if the student so chooses or if I feel they need that many dives to satisfy my requirements for comfort and skills level. As I have said elsewhere I will not allow a student with less than 10 OW dives post cert to take my AOW. I have no problem with them tagging along on any dives I'm doing to get those 10. I may not be able to supervise them as students but I'm more than happy to give them tips and offer pointers at no charge. For example why charge for a buoyancy course when it's covered in OW and a few dives and some friendly tips will help them meet my entry requirements for AOW. I expect students to be able to do all checkout skills in midwater horizontal for OW certification. 16 hours in the pool makes this pretty easy to accomplish by the time they get to checkouts.

And more divers would keep diving if they were completely comfortable with it from the day they get their OW card. So many drop out because they were not truly prepared for diving independently. And why do they need to pay for classes to stay close? Inviting them out for weekends, dive with classes, come to the pool when there is room. No need to take their money for things like this. Let them get familiar and proficient with the OW skills they just learned and set the prerequisite bar higher for Advanced classes. It's what I do and what my new AOW course is set up for.

 

[binsea]

Plowed thru sounds about right. What dives did you do and in what order? How much classroom time was included before this for the AOW dives? Where did you do it? And let me get this straight. You did the OW checkouts on days one and two. Then threw in a deep dive with 4 other dives somewhere in there? What agency was this with. I could not have done this under my agency standards. How deep was the deep dive and for how long? What gas management planning did you use? How much did they charge you for this cram it all in "course"? Whatever it was was too much. You got a an AOW card with no real experience. It would have been better to just do 9 dives and saved the price of the AOW course.

I do not believe in training for convenience(read profit). I train for safety, skills, and knowledge of the student. I do not allow MY OW students to take AOW with less than 10 dives post OW. If they are not my students they need more than that, an interview, a pool session, and maybe even a couple OW dives with me to see if they are even ready for AOW. I have a refresher coming up next week sometime. Following this the diver is going to Cozumel. When he comes back he is retaking the AOW course with me because the AOW course (with another agency) he took was less than satisfactory and did not offer much in the way of new skills. The refresher we will do will take about 3 hours and most of that time will be spent on getting his weighting and trim down because his OW and AOW courses did not spend much time on doing this. When he finishes with my course he will know how to use gas management, navigate, plan advanced dives, choose the right equipment, and know when the dive is beyond his level and not do it. He will also not NEED a DM or other pro in the water.

If anyone has taken OW and AOW and still needs a DM/Guide to lead the dives as opposed to wanting one for new sites, conditions, find specific points of interest of sealife, they got screwed.

Wow.
I seem to have touched a nerve.

You've implied that the instructors at my LDS cut corners & violated PADI standards.

Answers to some of your questions:

-- The agency was PADI.
-- All the open water dives were at Blue Hole, NM.
-- In addition to the classroom & pool time for OW, AOW added another 4 hours of classroom & 4 hours of AOW-dive-dry-runs in the pool, not including AOW book & video study time.
-- 3 dives Friday, 3 on Saturday, 3 on Sunday. The OW portion was completed with the first dive Saturday morning.
-- 5 AOW dives: Navigation & Night dives on Saturday, Deep, Peak Performance & Altitude dives Sunday.
-- The Deep dive maxed out at 80 feet (you can figure the theoretical depth @ 4600 ft elevation) and was about 15 minutes (I don't have my log book handy for the exact time.)

There aren't many other AOW dive choices available at Blue Hole, but that's a dive location limitation. Blue Hole is a training site and not much more than that. I'm landlocked. I could have flown to Miami for my AOW checkout, at a cost about triple that of doing my AOW at Blue Hole. I could also have put off AOW until later. My choice, done with my eyes wide open.

I'm new here, with only a few posts. You're obviously a regular. Your tone seems aimed at putting me in my place. I don't think I deserved it.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

It is not aimed at you but at the training you received. You did not have any time to practice the skills you learned in OW. Was your buoyancy on the navigation and night dives good enough that you were able to hold your depth within 2 feet? Did you do your descents vertically or horizontally? I also do not understand the altitude dive counting as a separate dive since all the dives were done at altitude. This is a common practice here as well for AOW. Gives the instructor an excuse for not passing on any extra skills. The deep dive is also about average. Except that I also teach deep stops, navigation with reel and line as a task loading exercise, do OOA drills at 90 feet and air share horizontal to 50 where we pick up the stage bottles and finish off the dive on those as a multilevel dive for a total run time of 45 minutes. I do not fault you for taking the class. It worked for you. But if you spend some time reading here you will see that there are many different paths and that sometimes waiting pays off. I again was not trying to put you in your place. Some of us here do not feel that people have to be coddled and treated with kid gloves. We grew up in a time where political correctness and beating around the bush were unheard of. I say what I think and do not mince words. I never have. Too many do and that's why there are so many thin skinned people in the world. I treat adults like adults.

 

[Nylorac]

There are varied opinions.

I'm in Party 3 (and for point of reference am rescue, trimix, stage decompression and overhead "certified" without ever having gone through an AOW program). Have fun in Honduras. I'm jealous.

Yes - I want to join Party 3! Sound like the best place to be.....:blinking::cool2::kiss2: