Open water + advanced in one go?

[Kingpatzer]

We grew up in a time where political correctness and beating around the bush were unheard of. I say what I think and do not mince words. I never have. Too many do and that's why there are so many thin skinned people in the world. I treat adults like adults.

While totally off-topic, others of the same era learned that if you're going to kill a man, it costs you nothing to be polite while doing so. Choosing to express significant disagreeing does not require one to engage in hostile and impolite rhetoric. It does require a bit more thought and time to choose a polite and tactful way of noting the points of contention.

That in no way lessens the significance of the disagreement, nor does it make that significance less intelligible to the reader.

Others, such as yourself, apparently see the cost in time and effort required to demonstrate some level of civility to be more than they are willing to spend. I don't understand such an attitude, but it is pervasive. To indicate that those who do try to take the time to not insult are somehow less mature, as you seem to, merely indicates to me that folks know they are being less than civil and are seeking to justify themselves. Perhaps I'm reading you incorrectly, and if so, I apologize. But I rather suspect I'm not.

Further, I'd note, that we're all guilty of such outbursts of passion on various topics. I certainly have engaged in my fair share on both this board and others. It would be hypocritical of me to suggest that I am uniquely different in regards to such behavior in all cases. The difference is that I do try to be civil. I do try to carefully word my responses, even when they are taking someone to task as in this case. And I am, far too often for my own liking, abashed by my own behavior when it is pointed out to me that I've written in such a fashion.

Passion is admirable. But treating people contemptuously, and then trying to justify that act by citing one's alleged maturity, is not. When the people being engaged in conversation indicate they are insulted by one's tone or choices of expression we are given a choice: respect the person and respond with some level of compassion, or respond without such respect. One is the true mark of maturity and the other is not.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Passion is admirable. But treating people contemptuously, and then trying to justify that act by citing one's alleged maturity, is not. When the people being engaged in conversation indicate they are insulted by one's tone or choices of expression we are given a choice: respect the person and respond with some level of compassion, or respond without such respect. One is the true mark of maturity and the other is not.

Passion is admirable. So is having the desire to share what you know with others. But if the sharing is done in a way that causes people to decide not to listen, both the passion and knowledge are wasted.

Delivering the message is important. Doing so in a way that makes people want to receive it is equally so. In order for communication to be effective, both must occur.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[OceanEd]

Jim:

I want to make clear that I applaud what you are doing and I recognize that we both want to help the divers get more "dive time" so they can improve their skills and continue to grow. If it was up to me there would be 10 open water dives included in the OW class, but that will never happen for a number of reasons.

The nice thing is that if we, as instructors, decide to increase the amount of time in the pool or the ocean we are allowed to do so. So I applaud your comment about 16 hours of pool training. I directed the diving programs for Patrick Air Force base for 3 years. I had the luxury of a heated olympic sized pool, all the equipment in the world, and we had 5, 3 hours pool sessions. It was really fantastic. I wish I could always teach that way, but unfortunately that is not going to happen with most of the training today, no matter what diving organizatgion we are talking.

I am glad you are able to do so.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Not just able to but required to by agency standards.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Not just able to but required to by agency standards.

Which is great for you individually. But the reality is that your agency is not nearly large enough to serve the public needs, and is showing no evidence of being able to. Indeed, take most of the other agencies (including those with nearly identical standards to PADI) together and the instructor base is not there to serve the public demand.

To disparage the standards of those agencies who are working to meet the public demand for reasonably quick training at affordable prices as not living up to your ideals is certainly your prerogative, but without a realistic alternative, it sounds as so much sour grapes.

It seems you would rather see people not diving than diving having been trained by PADI.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

It has nothing to do with the agency itself. I want to see divers who are safe, competent, skilled, and completely comfortable in the water. Who do not need a DM to keep them from getting hurt. Who are able to do what the agency states they can- Plan, execute, and return from a dive safely in conditions similar to or better than that in which they trained. Without supervision. That is the stated goal of all WRSTC members and every agency I am aware of. To issue a card to someone who cannot do this is in direct contradiction to that. I want to know that when I get on a boat that every person on that boat is capable of taking care of themselves and their buddy if the need would arise. I do not think that is too much to ask.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Not all beginning divers will be "completely comfortable" in the water coming out of any program of any significant size that is affordable to an average person. But I have yet to see anyone get a PADI certification from my LDS who was not perfectly capable to go to the lakes and quarries around here and plan and execute a dive.

But you're more than willing to assume that this is not the case.

Should these folks be perfectly comfortable in the ocean? I would not expect that to be the case. The conditions are not similar, and while in some ways the oceans are "better" in terms of clarity, they are certainly significantly different in terms of depth, current, surface conditions, etc. And, if it's a boat dive that would be a first for our students as well.

And as regards AOW, the claim that PADI makes for AOW is nothing more than you will gain dive experience around some of the specialty courses that the student may take at some later date. It is precisely a course with a stated goal of gaining dive experience under supervision.

 

[OceanEd]

Jim:

Could you clarify for me what you mean by "required by standards"? Are you required by standards to have 16 hours of pool time? Are you required by standards to not admit someone into an Advanced Open Water class until they have 10 ocean dives? I find this very interesting and would love to discuss it. If this is true, it really does cut to the heart of what we are talking about concerning when to let students into what class.

 

[vshearer]

I am going to head to Utila to try out scuba; definitely aim for the Open Water, but possibly the Advanced as well? I am looking at packages where you end up with the Advanced with 13 dives under your belt (over 7 days).....after Utila, I will probably head to Belize and possibly dive there also - the attraction of doing the Advanced in Utila would be the possibility of 'better' diving in Belize. If I got the bug, I might also go to the Corn Islands later in the trip, and maybe around Santa Marta, Columbia as well (I want to head there anyway).
.

Do it in Utila if you have a dive op there to certify. Why? 'Cause you will get a bunch of tropical dives AND the certification rather than doing pool or cold water for the cert.

Wow, you sure opened the proverbial can with this thread.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Jim:

Could you clarify for me what you mean by "required by standards"? Are you required by standards to have 16 hours of pool time? Are you required by standards to not admit someone into an Advanced Open Water class until they have 10 ocean dives? I find this very interesting and would love to discuss it. If this is true, it really does cut to the heart of what we are talking about concerning when to let students into what class.

Stephen, yes I am required by agency standards to teach a 32 hour course divided equally between pool and class room. I can under some circumstances shorten the hours to 24 but must make up that time during the open water portion of the course. Either by providing more "classroom" on site or adding a dive or other in water instruction. Standards also dictate that students must be comfortable in the water, have command of neutral buoyancy and know how to maintain good trim. I am also required to teach rescue skills including in water rescue breaths, unconscious diver from depth, and panicked diver at the surface. The swim tests are not permitted to be done with mask, fins, and snorkel. We still do bailout and doff and don.

As for the AOW course right now it is not a standard that the student have 10 OW dives but if I have a say in it they will. I am currently charged with rewriting the Advanced Guidelines and am doing it based on the course I have been teaching successfully since becoming an instructor. I have had students drive from North Carolina ( 8 hours with three dogs) and Philadelphia ( 5 hours) to take this course as well as locally. A student with less than 10 dives will not be able to successfully complete my AOW course that I have seen so far.

In addition to the ten dives I require them to be able to perform all basic skills hovering in a horizontal position and not change depth by more than 2 feet. Exit requires them to perform the skills with less than 1 foot variation. I also have them shoot bags, deploy slung pony bottles, use lines and reels, deep stops, no mask air share swims and ascents, buddy skills are not optional. getting separated twice is an automatic fail. No matter what the conditions are. Any obvious violation of safety protocols is also a fail. One time is warning, twice and the class is over for that student. No refund, no coming back. This is all clearly spelled out in the pre class interview. This attitude has resulted in the class being called educational, fun, informative, eye opening, and humbling. One couple said it even made their marriage better by showing them just how much they are able to rely on each other and how it required a lot of communication under water and on the surface.

There is also 8 hours of classroom covering gas management, SAC rates, emergency deco procedures ( SEI covers that in OW anyway), hazards, equipment selection and use for advanced dives. Will all of these get adopted? I don't know. I do know that the class I am teaching is the one I will continue to teach and am allowed to make the class as stringent as I wish as long as safety is not compromised. The fact that I have been asked to work on these guidelines after explaining the class in detail to our CEO, and forwarding the student comments to him that have taken the class, tells me that I am on the right track and that we are looking at yes getting more students but not at the expense of training be less than of the highest caliber. Our OW class sets the standard I feel we should be aspiring to. Any less to me is unacceptable.

It is this attitude that has brought me the students it has and in fact I have a refresher next Tuesday for a guy who is going to Cozumel and when he returns is retaking AOW with his stepson and maybe his wife because the AOW he got was not satisfactory to him and was little more than a tour. My strict requirements for buddy skills and practice is why the stepson is going to train with me. Along with the fact that I will use whatever means are necessary to point out the importance of it. Including photos of dead divers, autopsy reports, and witness statements that I have collected.

I do not do this for a living. I don;t care about turning out large numbers of students. I want to have the people I train be able to go anywhere in the world and have them looked at with the respect they deserve. SEI Diving doesn't sell certifications. We sell training. Certifications are earned. I will train a student until they meet agency and my standards. I train in local lakes and quarries where vis is sometimes less than stellar. For me to certify a student I have to be sure that they can dive in these conditions unsupervised and I use the NAUI loved one concept. If I would hesitate to allow a student to dive with someone I cared about I have no business giving them a card until I would be.

I would welcome a dialogue with you on this. Either in anew thread or via private email. You can get a hold of me via my website anytime. And if you have Verizon Cell service feel free to call. The number is also on the website.
Jim Lapenta
SEI Diving Instructor #204