Open Source Instruction for Entry Level Scuba

[awetmedic]

I never saw your first reply, sorry.

So it looks like

Your looking for open source training materials.

Your looking to reward volunteers in your org with an adventure activity.

Looking to incoperate the areas of training that fit your mission from many different programs (I think on this)

And your unhappy with online learning.

I would say that is an accurate assesment. It is not that I am unhappy with online learning, I am just against replacing an instructor with it.

 

[fjpatrum]

When the Home Page web site is completed, I will be putting up widget that will allow people to add course content that is in the public domain. I have one working right now at the bottom of my homepage. You can post a link, describe it and it stays as a reference for anyone. I have set up server space and subdomains for anyone to get free website hosting space once they register with our nonprofit as a volunteer we call a "Mate". For examle the AUSI information from Austrailia. Anything that is free and in the public domain. Not to slight scuba, but sailing will be first, as this is where most of my volunteers will need training so they can assist with a sailing team to be entered into the special olympics. Scuba will not be the only sport we will open source. The widgets, and there is one working right now make it possible for anyone to author content. Since other people are the authors and this is free for anyone to post (like this great site scubaboard) I have to disagree with a previous post of yours and defend it as being open source.

So who is reviewing the content to make sure it doesn't say newbies can dive to 300 ft on air without any concerns? Seriously, open source has its place but allowing just any old Joe Schmoe to add material without review is a bad idea, in my opinion. That's the benefit of established courses and agencies... someone has set standards and reviews the materials for compliance with those standards. As I read your statement above, that won't be the case and you will potentially be opening yourself up to much more liability than you seem to think.

 

[awetmedic]

With open source, you have the greatest review of all, popular opinion by the world forum! As far as established standards, look at the huge reductions in standards that have occurred over the years by agencies trying to push out more divers in pursuit of the all mighty dollar. Open source is not an authored course by any one particular person. It is the collective information of as many different sources as possible. There is not any information out there, that I know of that advocates Newbies dive to 300' on air, can you direct me to it?

 

[boulderjohn]

With open source, you have the greatest review of all, popular opinion by the world forum! As far as established standards, look at the huge reductions in standards that have occurred over the years by agencies trying to push out more divers in pursuit of the all mighty dollar. Open source is not an authored course by any one particular person. It is the collective information of as many different sources as possible. There is not any information out there, that I know of that advocates Newbies dive to 300' on air, can you direct me to it?

There is a prolific writer on Scubaboard who will be happy to help you out. He agrees with you that existing agencies are far too limiting in their restrictions. He regularly advocates divers going beyond 200 feet without any formal training to do so. He doesn't believe in any of the silliness about extra gas, helium mixes, narcosis, etc. An aluminum 80 tank filled with air is all you need to dive to such depths. If you want open source information, he will be more than happy to give you everything you need. I can put you in touch with him if you want.

I am sure that only the best and the brightest will want to contribute. The people who have dangerous, off-the-wall opinions will certainly hold back, realizing that their own opinions are dangerous and off the wall. They will say, "As strongly as I feel that I am right, I should not contribute because I know my opinions are truly dangerous and off the wall."

Go to the DIR forum and see the thread on the Wikipedia article on DIR and how filled with misinformation that was.

 

[awetmedic]

The thing about open source information is that if you have 99% of the people saying one thing and 1% saying something different, and the 99% make comments about how absurd the 1% opinion is, it is pretty easy to figure out what makes sense. Back in the old days, we all followed the US Navy dive tables down to 180' on air as the max depth for scuba divers. We have since then gotten smarter. It would be pretty obvious to anyone that where the majority of opinion lies in regards to pushing the limits of the tables. The thing about open source is that you expect to have malicious, incorrect and uncertain information mixed in with the opinions of the majority. You can easily determine what is mainstream and what is not.

 

[Superlyte27]

In reply to gurnie

We got our letter of determination as a nonprofit in 2008 and it will probably be another 5 years or so before it is self supporting.

What's the name of your 501.3c non-profit agency so we can look it up.

 

[awetmedic]

Forsyth Area Sports Teams, Inc. We are too small for guidestar you have to go to the IRS.gov web site.

 

[fjpatrum]

With open source, you have the greatest review of all, popular opinion by the world forum! As far as established standards, look at the huge reductions in standards that have occurred over the years by agencies trying to push out more divers in pursuit of the all mighty dollar. Open source is not an authored course by any one particular person. It is the collective information of as many different sources as possible. There is not any information out there, that I know of that advocates Newbies dive to 300' on air, can you direct me to it?

Obviously the 300' on air was an example of something ridiculous. You will find people advocating ridiculous things and you need a way to protect yourself against that. Whether you say it's not an "authored course" or not, you're talking about "certifying" people to dive based on material you provide and teach them. That's not the same, legally, as the folks who own/run Scubaboard, for example, and have some protection against liability for what's written here on the board by its members. If you are using the website as a "resource" or as supplemental material for a course you are teaching, then you have to make sure the information provided isn't going to get someone hurt because it's stupid.

Popular opinion once held that slavery was acceptable, the world was flat, and the sun revolved around the earth. That didn't make it a correct. My point is that just because a lot of people say something doesn't make it right or even a good policy to support it, as a business, whether it's right or wrong. I'm not trying to dissuade you from doing something like your "post links here" idea, I'm just suggesting you implement a review of what you accept and keep as "fact" on your website or for your training course materials and supplemental materials. It's only prudent if you don't want to deal with lawsuits in the future.


While I may be wrong, I suspect you'll find that most of the agencies have the same basic standards (as far as skills) as they did when they established themselves. PADI I'm sure has different standards than NAUI but I'd be surprised if either agency significantly cut the actual skills out of their OW over the years. Yeah, the training has been condensed but that's not the same thing as taking the actual skills off the checklist.

 

[awetmedic]

Thanks for looking out for me, the great thing about boards and forums is that you can always find people willing to put forth the extra effort try pry into every possibility. In May of 1981 I was first certified to teach and have taught hundreds of divers in four different countries for multiple agencies since then. I doubt that after all of those classes I am going to introduce a strange and bizarre concept and one that would hurt students, but who knows anything is always possible. Lets say for the scuba course we decide to cover the material in Jeppeson, Dennis Gravers book and AUSI and then dig back into the archives and pull out the athletic portion of the old YMCA course for our open water training. This would be an easy example of impromptu scuba course. And as long as ANSI standard for scuba, in the public domain, is followed then I have my approved course. If the course was taught to ANSI standards then the card would say "The student has met the ANSI standards for open water scuba". I don't fear lawsuits, not after a dozen with my ex wife.

You are actually quite wrong about skills not being taken off of the checklist. This was really strong in the early 80's for one particular organization. This was about the time they were forced by the 9th circuit court to institute an environment program and other remedies for misdeeds.

If you dig you will find out that Dennis Graver started with one organization, developed it, then switched to NAUI after some substantial cuts were made to the courses of the organization he started with.

In these posts someplace I list some of those deletions that I was really against and complained against. Yes, skills have definitely been deleted.

 

[fjpatrum]

You are actually quite wrong about skills not being taken off of the checklist. This was really strong in the early 80's for one particular organization. This was about the time they were forced by the 9th circuit court to institute an environment program and other remedies for misdeeds.

If you dig you will find out that Dennis Graver started with one organization, developed it, then switched to NAUI after some substantial cuts were made to the courses of the organization he started with.

In these posts someplace I list some of those deletions that I was really against and complained against. Yes, skills have definitely been deleted.

You keep alluding to these but I can't find any posts where you specify things that have been removed from a particular program other than general physical fitness. Could you be specific about what you believe has been deleted from ANY of the programs? I'm seriously curious but I can't find any skills that have been deleted, so far.