One-hand or two-hand valve drills (back mount doubles)
- Thread starter lukas_manthony
- Start date
-
- Tags
- #doubles #valvedrill
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
How much should he pay the instructor for getting his gear together, coming to the pool, setting up his gear, air-gunning him for an hour, mixing in some other training objectives, breaking down his gear, heading home, cleaning and drying his gear, and putting it away?
OP
lukas_manthony
Registered
That's what I meant, yes. I've learned here that the DIR/GUE drill is not the same thing as a true gas loss event. I'll read up on what you recommend.
There is a big difference between a valve drill and a valve closure due to a problem.
The valvedrill is especially in the DIR scene also a skill to proof bouyancy and coordination control. By moving the left hand with the light horizontally and turning with the right hand the valve, you train coordination skills. And then you do the same with the left hand on the valve and the right hand on the light horizontally. This really trains your brains for coordination. The time that is taken by doing this skill is way too slow in a real emergency.
If you have a real emergency, you only close valves first. If the problem is solved, you maybe try to open them carefully again, but the biggest thing here is closing and that must be done fast without loosing bouyancy or getting entangled. Once closed, the gas is saved. And saving the gas is most important. By using both hands, one on the valve and 1 on the manifold you can act fast if you don't know where the failure is. This can be an advantage. But only if you know to close the manifold lefthanded, because most are only trained to do it with the right hand.
I think it is not bad to practise the manifold closure also with the left hand. But by using both hands you cannot sign a buddy anymore. The slow signalling you do in the valvedrill on the dir way is way to sloo to show an emergency to you buddy if you have real problem.
So the best is to practise both. The complete skill while trying to be smooth and train bouyancy and coordination. And the skill by also using the left hand for the manifold. Also using the left hand can be trained for coordination also.
And remember to read the standards well. Most times there is written 'perform a valve SHUTDOWN in less than X seconds'. That is really different from a valve drill.
The valvedrill is especially in the DIR scene also a skill to proof bouyancy and coordination control. By moving the left hand with the light horizontally and turning with the right hand the valve, you train coordination skills. And then you do the same with the left hand on the valve and the right hand on the light horizontally. This really trains your brains for coordination. The time that is taken by doing this skill is way too slow in a real emergency.
If you have a real emergency, you only close valves first. If the problem is solved, you maybe try to open them carefully again, but the biggest thing here is closing and that must be done fast without loosing bouyancy or getting entangled. Once closed, the gas is saved. And saving the gas is most important. By using both hands, one on the valve and 1 on the manifold you can act fast if you don't know where the failure is. This can be an advantage. But only if you know to close the manifold lefthanded, because most are only trained to do it with the right hand.
I think it is not bad to practise the manifold closure also with the left hand. But by using both hands you cannot sign a buddy anymore. The slow signalling you do in the valvedrill on the dir way is way to sloo to show an emergency to you buddy if you have real problem.
So the best is to practise both. The complete skill while trying to be smooth and train bouyancy and coordination. And the skill by also using the left hand for the manifold. Also using the left hand can be trained for coordination also.
And remember to read the standards well. Most times there is written 'perform a valve SHUTDOWN in less than X seconds'. That is really different from a valve drill.
OP
lukas_manthony
Registered
You’re right. I didn’t understand that the DIR drill was different than the DIR emergency shut down procedure. I only meant that performing the drill procedure in an emergency situation seemed silly. I am gathering that most people here would agree with that.
I don’t think I was doubling down on being intentionally ignorant. I simply missed the fact that there is a DIR emergency procedure in addition to a DIR drill. That was never explained to me, or I never grasped it until now. I’m glad I understand it now. I’m pretty eager to learn how these drills apply to real life situations, and it feels like your response took the least charitable view of where I was coming from. I think the spirit of my post here was to try to really get to the bottom of valve drills and their use in the real world. Along the way, I simply spoke my mind about how the different approaches to the drill/emergency situation appeared to me. I don’t regret that, because now I’ve learned something I didn’t know before. I will point out that there was a way for us to arrive here without having to escalate the conversation from “you’re badly misinformed” all the way to “make a choice between arrogance and humility”. I’ve been a teacher for many years and have never articulated a lesson in those terms. But hey, maybe my tone or words were off, or maybe it sounded arrogant. That wasn’t my intention.
Alaskan Scuba Dude
Banned
Point taken, although you’re mistaken if you think I set the bar, it was already set by my 12 international mentors who have achieved a collective 175+ years of technical and recreational expertise—not by some hick town instructor breaking wind in a swimming pool. (GPS coordinates available on request). This is precisely why I coined my own doctrine after much deliberation: Solution Is Simple Safe Effective—(SISSE). Now let’s examine how your pathetic cave instructor prepared you for a shutdown, and why the two-handed shutdown is irrelevant—since it takes too long to address the issue. The triple SSS strategy: Shutdown, SPG, Signal. It doesn’t have to be in that order. Works! The left hand allows you to monitor the SPG and determine which post has the leak. Or should you so desire simply clip your SPG to your shoulder D-ring. A transmitter hooked up to your computer doesn’t allow you to monitor the leak if the computer is on the right hand and you’re in the process of isolating your manifold. It also doesn’t allow you to monitor the impending leak if you’re doing a two-handed shutdown. When cave diving I prefer the Goodman handle with cord since it allows me to drop the light in an emergency and regain my composure. I strongly advise you to take note of my triple RRR strategy in an emergency. Restore the breathing rhythm, regain composure, re-establish exit. PADI’s slogan: Stop Think Act is nothing but meaningless words without a strategy. I learn from the best I learn from the worst. One of the many reasons I enjoy reading bedtime stories contributed by @kensuf or negligent use of a DPV by @Boarderguy.
I think @ELCAM @Lorenzoid @halocline @crofrog made it pretty clear there’s a difference between a drill and an emergency shutdown. It seemed like you were on the path to “getting it” when you referenced practicing arpeggios versus performing them but then you seemed to entrench. @Nick_Radov pointed out that you’ve been misinformed (that doesn’t lay blame on you but your instructor) and @Beau Holden provided an actual reference. Not sure how much more folks could’ve indicated to you there was a wider perspective on the topic of valve manipulation.
You’re not a victim of anything here. Everything’s OK, nobody‘s been shot, tortured or hung from a tree.
You’re familiar with pedagogy. Good stuff. The lesson has been provided here so now it’s time to be the student, go get in the pool and practice your valve drills.
Forget that double-handed drill somebody planted in your head. That’s not where proficiency is at.
Let us know how you get along.
OP
lukas_manthony
Registered
You're very right. It just took me a while to figure it out. I'm thankful for everyone's input and am on my way to the pool to practice now.
The pool is a good place to practice. Hopefully, you have a buddy to work with. I recall an adage about doing valve drills along the lines of: "It's only a matter of time before you mess up the sequence and find that you have turned off all your air." Practicing valve drills with a buddy who is there at the ready to shove a working regulator in your face in case you mess up is a good idea. Ask me how I know.
While this is definitely true (happened to me), it could be a beneficial experience if you know ahead of time what to do if that happens. If you know that it is possible to shut off both your valves by mistake, if you know that turning on the valve for the regulator in your mouth will provide all the air you need within the couple of seconds it takes to begin the opening process, and if you understand how unlikely it is that you will die in those 2-3 seconds, you will end up with a good learning experience about dealing with issues calmly.The pool is a good place to practice. Hopefully, you have a buddy to work with. I recall an adage about doing valve drills along the lines of: "It's only a matter of time before you mess up the sequence and find that you have turned off all your air." Practicing valve drills with a buddy who is there at the ready to shove a working regulator in your face in case you mess up is a good idea. Ask me how I know.
If you do shut off both valves, your thought process should be along the lines of "What an idiot I was!" as you casually open the valve.
Similar threads
