On the merits of cranking up standards.

[KeithG]

Let me clear up the misunderstanding. This thread was primarily directed at people, who feel that some aspect of the quality of scuba instruction needs improvement (but of course, everyone is welcome to comment).

And maybe us stone tossers are still being way too obtuse. But you have not clarified anything.

WHY are you trying to improve training? What will that accomplish?

In general everything can be improved. But to what end. Why improve it? So far the thread content is mainly academic bickering.

Are too many new divers dying? Do most divers kick too much coral? Too many divers kicking up sand near photographers? Too many divers coming back to the boat with not enough gas in their tanks?

We want to know WHY you think training need to be improved. That will establish a goal. Once the goal has been defined then we can intelligently talk about changes to reach that goal.

Example: I could spent bags of money making my car go faster. But before I start on that voyage I would want to understand why I needed it to go faster. What is my goal? 0-60 in under 2 seconds so I can blow away all the little old ladies off the stop light? 200mph top end so I can be faster than anyone else on the highway?

 

[drrich2]

Since the dive club model for instruction has been brought up as a possible to solution to whatever-the-problem-is, check out this thread on Dive Clubs: Why aren't there more? Where did they all go? Many people in the U.S. are at least vaguely aware of BSAC, yet that approach does not dominate here.

That said, there are scuba clubs in the U.S. Generally local, not local chapters of major international organizations, but an instructor or instructors may found a club with some loosely affiliated members who sometimes join the group on scheduled trips. This is how my 1st 4 trips to Bonaire happened, and it's a good way for newbies to break into international dive trips with some guidance and support along the way.

That's not the same as a BSAC approach; just a point that not every PADI or SSI fresh OW grad. is a 'lone wolf' diver.

Richard.

 

[kr2y5]

WHY are you trying to improve training? What will that accomplish?

I am not sure that I understand your concerns, but I get the impression that you are looking for a single WHY that applies to everyone. There is no shortage of people, who feel strongly about the topic, and I'm sure everyone has their own twist on WHY. I suspect most people, who feel strongly about it either were not so happy about the instruction they received, or feel that the poor skills of other divers negatively impact their own safety and enjoyment, and feel that there is something scuba agencies can do about one of the other. I'm pretty sure in either case, everyone, who holds a strong opinion has some very specific experiences they can share, and possibly ideas what can be done better. Many people alluded to it in the many threads that tiptoed around the question. Personally, I'm not very interested in WHYs, I'm much more interested in actions, specifically how scuba agencies can facilitate the kind of changes people are after.

 

[EFX]

If you don't share the same level of frustration as others, or if you don't think there's anything that can be done, I think that's easy... from your perspective, the answer is simply "nothing" (a perfectly valid answer).

I never said there's nothing that can be done. I mentioned a specific problem (short dive times) and didn't bother offering a solution. I have a solution and mentioned one action by the agency (survey) and further actions (monitor instructors/classes).

I don't think that's necessarily a prerequisite to answering the question. It could be that the specific goals adopted by the agency are getting in the way of increasing the quality of instruction.

Not a prerequisite? Really? How do we know if an agency's specific goals are getting in the way of the quality of instruction if we don't understand the goals?

In a later post you mention you valued constructive opinions. Well, you got eight pages of opinions. You got seven pages of constructive opinions after removing the cynical greed and our-divers-look-better-than-your-instructor comments. When you arm people with shotguns to kill a room full of mosquitoes all you get is a room full of mosquitoes and a room with walls filled with holes to let in more mosquitoes.

 

[The Chairman]

That said, there are scuba clubs in the U.S. Generally local, not local chapters of major international organizations,

In reality, you belong to the world's largest community of divers right here on SB.In that regard, we are an international club and we do a lot to improve diving and diving standards. We even allow room on here for individual clubs to interact with each other and even to recruit others.

 

[RainPilot]

FWIW, some of my thoughts on the various agencies that I have had direct experience with:

NAUI: I certified as a diver in 2000 with NAUI because thats what my friend was certified to teach and we had no other options on the base that i was stationed on. As i was a newly minted flight instructor, I was obviously quite interested in the teaching methodologies used in diving as compared to flight training. One of the things that I was impressed by was the "Freedom to teach" philosophy that was, at that time, unique to NAUI compared to other main agencies.

In practice, this meant that, as long as the students were made aware of deviations BEFORE signing on to the course, you could include ANY additional skills / dives / entry requirements etc etc as long as you met and exceeded the published standards. This was at a time when , for example, the swim test had been cut down to a ridiculously low standard (my opinion only) and my instructor explained that the NAUI standard was X and he would be requiring more from us, and explained why. Also, he required us to do fireman lifts and carry our buddy 100m as an entry requirement. His rationale was that since we did almost all shore diving with little to no support elements, it would be good to know we could carry our buddy up the beach to the vehicle and drive him to the hospital.

There were many other examples, the take-away for me was that if you had a valid reason for adding something to the course, the students always had the option of going to a different instructor. None did.

Later when I certified as an instructor it was with NAUI and i continued to implement many of the same requirements as my instructor as I agreed with the rationale behind them.

PADI: In my experience so far, I have never met a PADI instructor who did not believe that they were giving the best possible instruction to their students. All those I have met have been committed to training and teaching to the highest standards. The problem is that we don't know what we don't know, and many of these fine people have been through the OW-Instructor sausage machine. The nett result is that their personal skills and knowledge outside of the course materials is totally dependent on how lucky they got with who their instructors were. This is not PADI specific, but I feel it is fair to say that the majority of young professional divers becoming instructors are doing it through PADI so the numbers get skewed fast. I have no personal experience of being inside the PADI system but many of my CD friends and regular OWSI find that it is more restrictive wrt teaching freedom than many other agencies.

RAID: When I finally took the plunge and got a rebreather in January this year, I looked around for a suitable agency to take my first course with. I then discovered RAID and so far have been very impressed. They have a very flexible instruction principle somewhat similar to NAUI of old, e.g. the book says to teach a "non-silting" propulsion method and all skills to be completed in trim and not touching the bottom by the end of the course. i can choose whether i want the students to have mastered frog and back and helicopter turns or not, I can choose what my definition of the limits for hovering are etc. their QA is also outstanding in that EVERY skill has to be signed off as completed by the Instructor as well as the student before cert. They require in-water hour minimums as well as dive numbers, so none of this 4 x 20 min dive and you're done.

UTD: i was invited to do the UTD IDC recently and completed it successfully. On a personal skills level the requirements are substantially higher than the other agencies and I found out exactly how good i wasn't on day one. The QA is superb with all dives being video'd (sp?) and in the case of the IDC sent to the Training Board for approval of the candidate before cert. I feel that the control of instructor standards with UTD is definitely the best I have experienced so far. For me the biggest bonus is that I can run a UTD course and certify RAID as all the skills are covered and no issues with exceeding the required standards.

 

[RainPilot]

I believe that the major issue facing ALL agencies is not standards, but standardisation. In aviation, we all have the standards to adhere to but as soon as you have 3 instructors you find 4 ways of teaching the same material. It does not help having the greatest standards ever conceived if you cannot ensure that all your representatives are following those standards. This is where PADI gets hammered routinely on the boards because it really is a problem of scale and in the standardisation sense they have become victims of their own success. that being said, they make a huge effort at an almost impossible task and achieve remarkable results. its the ones that slip through the cracks that always end up being the bone of contention which is not really fair on PADI but it is their problem eventually.

To the point of the OP , my suggestion would be the addition/expansion of a pure instruction module to IDC. Its all well and good to ensure that the candidates are skilled divers and knowledgeable but if they cannot transfer the knowledge effectively, then the students are the ones who suffer. UTD for example uses the FAA Instructor handbook which deals with the principles of instruction quite well, teaching is teaching and there are a lot more similarities than differences between flying and diving training mindsets.

Once you have fully understood the Law of Primacy, it would be a cynical instructor indeed who did not ensure that their own diving was exemplary to their students and so on.

 

[Hawkwood]

In reality, you belong to the world's largest community of divers right here on SB.In that regard, we are an international club and we do a lot to improve diving and diving standards. We even allow room on here for individual clubs to interact with each other and even to recruit others.

Plus you allow for dissenting opinions/ideas.

 

[ljpm]

I'm very new to diving (2 years) and only experienced with PADI. That being said I feel self regulation doesn't work. Padi courses feel very light on skills and knowledge and appear to be mainly set up to create a revenue stream for both Padi and the dive shops.

 

[KevinNM]

I'm very new to diving (2 years) and only experienced with PADI. That being said I feel self regulation doesn't work. Padi courses feel very light on skills and knowledge and appear to be mainly set up to create a revenue stream for both Padi and the dive shops.

Did they actually cover all the skills in the checklist during your open water course?