On no island like Bonaire

[jd950]

It's easy to display the people of Bonaire as a bunch of thieves and such. But there's two sides to every story (anybody remember Joe Walsh singing that?), and I believe that about 90 percent of all crime on Bonaire is caused by personal carelessness and a lack of common sense.

Kids that have a future don't hide behind bushes on lonely dive sites, waiting for prey.

Theft is caused by thieves. Theft is perpetrated by people who are simply greedy or unprincipled or have inadequate self restraint, or suffer from some moral or psychological defect, or live in a cultural setting in which theft is considered acceptable.

I grant that people in truly desperate situations like extreme hunger, drug addiction, and so on can be driven to such behavior when they otherwise would not do so, and in some small measure "bad kids" may cause some crimes, but not on the scale it occurs on Bonaire.

"Kids that have a future don't hide behind bushes on lonely dive sites, waiting for prey." Sure they do, if they are taught that stealing from tourists is okay by their friends and families. Of course the do, if they are working with their father, uncle, a gang or others. Naturally they do, when their social group is unconcerned about such behavior and, as in Bonaire, there is simply no consequence for the behavior.

To most normal, self-respecting and morally-centered people in virtually every developed society, the fact that someone has left a shirt in their truck or a laptop in their hotel room, or left their screen door open to enjoy a sea breeze, or the disparity in wealth between a thief and his victim, does not justify theft.

I suppose women dressed suggestively deserve to be raped? Perhaps if I set my briefcase down on the train seat next to me I deserve to have it taken? Maybe an obviously intoxicated person walking down the street deserves to be mugged? Where does such a philosophy stop?

Do you really maintain that it is carelessness to keep valuables in a house?!

Craziness.

It is this kind of denial and excuse-making that keeps these Bonaire crime debates going. Most of us know that crime occurs "everywhere" and Bonaire is no exception, if perhaps more extreme than some places.

But unlike other destinations there is this pervasive head-in-the-sand attitude about Bonaire that fuels the debates and frustrates people. Crime on Bonaire is concealed whenever possible and when that fails, it is always the kids, or people from Trinidad, Aruba, Curacao or the Dominican Republic, or it is the victims' fault, or due to the economy, or people overstating the problem or other divers doing the thefts, or some other excuse, and THAT is Bonaire's true problem in this regard.

 

[DiverVince]

It's easy to display the people of Bonaire as a bunch of thieves and such. But there's two sides to every story (anybody remember Joe Walsh singing that?), and I believe that about 90 percent of all crime on Bonaire is caused by personal carelessness and a lack of common sense.



Fault - completely mine. Never leave valuables, especially cash, unattended in the car. Of course, nobody locks a car day or night on Bonaire.




The other thing, of course, is to have some common sense. No valuables in the house, or use a (hidden) safe or something. We had the luck to live in an area where neighbors are present all day (Santa Barbara). If you permanently reside on the island I would suggest using window shutters all over or even some alarm. But a simple dog might just do the job. Highly frequented sites like Karpata are famous for attracting thieves. Again, leave nothing, NOTHING, in the car. Leave it open. Use a drybox for IDs, keys etc. If you park in crowded areas - Kralendijk, beaches - it is not even a problem leaving your dive equipment in the trunk while shopping. We did lots of times. Never a problem. But lonely places like Karpata - no way. I was told they even steal car batteries sometimes.

To sum it up, most of the Bonaireans are friendly and open minded and the island's atmosphere is simply fascinating. So is the diving and I just can't wait to return.

Excellent posting. Many of us on this board have been saying this for years, but there is a cadre of hard core Bonaire bashers (BBs) that you will never convince otherwise, and they will attack anyone who posts anything contrary to their "agenda".
Watch how they react and attack this post. :mooner:

The BBs are members of the church of "if something bad happens to me, it's someone else's fault". Never will they ever accept their own responsibility. And most of them have such limited time and experience on Bonaire that to read their rambling musings about crime and "whitewashing", and "pixie dust" is pathetic. But, the world is made up of all sorts of folks, it's just unfortunate that some are so ill informed, advised and biased.

My amazement at experiencing first hand the big differences between Bonaire and the U.S., formed the impetus for starting this thread. And I for one have been visiting this island on and off for some 25 years. Bonaire is a safe and wonderful island, with many, many fantastic people. Does the occasional bad thing happen, unfortunately yes. And I challenge anyone to show me anyplace on this globe inhabited by people where that sentence is false. It doesn't exists.

 

[jd950]

The BBs are members of the church of "if something bad happens to me, it's someone else's fault". Never will they ever accept their own responsibility.

I would not have considered myself a "BB." I have been to Bonaire, but only once. I intend to return. Well, maybe. I have encouraged people to go there but have expressed concern about the crime rate, which appears from discussions on Bonaire Talk to be much more significant than has been mentioned here. But is it so wrong to be frank and open about this?

I have never used the terms whitewash or pixie dust, although there does seem to be tremendous hostility by some to any mention of thefts and burglaries on the island, and an absolute terror of discussing the break-ins to condo and hotel rooms, including rooms that are occupied at the time.

Am I now a member of that "church" Vince mentioned? If I get robbed, burglarized, or am a victim of theft, I believe it is the fault of the person doing those things. As far as I can tell, most if not all civil and criminal laws and religious principles around the world follow that same concept.

So, if my rental condo gets broken into and my belongings are stolen, it is my fault. If I am so foolhardy as to leave something as trivial as a sandwich, bottle of water or T shirt in my truck, I should not only expect it to get taken, but should accept that it is my fault and no one else's. When I stop by the dive shop later today, if I happen to see a tank or a nice BCD left in the bed of someone's truck, I guess I can take it and I am not to blame, right? Or is this a Bonaire-only rule?

Maybe Bonaire is more unique than I knew.

By the way, what is with labeling anyone who say things you don't like as a "BB?" This concept sounds oddly like being labeled an "SP" by a certain group.

(Suppressive Person - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

By speaking out have I now offended the Church of Bonaireology?

"Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is also true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on."

John F. Kennedy

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

Excellent posting. Many of us on this board have been saying this for years, but there is a cadre of hard core Bonaire bashers (BBs) that you will never convince otherwise, and they will attack anyone who posts anything contrary to their "agenda".
Watch how they react and attack this post. :mooner:

The BBs are members of the church of "if something bad happens to me, it's someone else's fault". Never will they ever accept their own responsibility. And most of them have such limited time and experience on Bonaire that to read their rambling musings about crime and "whitewashing", and "pixie dust" is pathetic. But, the world is made up of all sorts of folks, it's just unfortunate that some are so ill informed, advised and biased.

My amazement at experiencing first hand the big differences between Bonaire and the U.S., formed the impetus for starting this thread. And I for one have been visiting this island on and off for some 25 years. Bonaire is a safe and wonderful island, with many, many fantastic people. Does the occasional bad thing happen, unfortunately yes. And I challenge anyone to show me anyplace on this globe inhabited by people where that sentence is false. It doesn't exists.

Just for fun, I went to Saba tourism and looked at their suggestions to avoid being a victim of crime (as Saba is known to have little to no crime...)

It has been suggested that Saba has the lowest per capita crime of any place in the world...

Here is what they suggest as "common sense precautions"

Crime is certainly not a heavy concern for travelers visiting the small island of Saba. Nevertheless, travelers should always take common sense precautions when they are traveling abroad.

Saba has a small, friendly population of just 1,200 citizens, many of whom are familiar with one another. Crime is not a large concern for residents or travelers here. There is a police office, located in The Bottom, and officers navigate the small island in squad cars to enforce traffic laws.

Although Saba is said by many to be largely crime free, it is always wise to take common sense precautions when you are traveling abroad. Travelers should always have their credit cards, cash, and other important documents such as passports in secure and concealed locations. Always lock hotel doors, and take advantage of hotel safes. Travelers should be cautious of removing credit cards and cash in public, and should also avoid flaunting expensive items such as jewelry or electronic equipment. Finally, avoid traveling in remote and unlit areas in the evening. Never leave your valuables unattended on a beach, in public, or in your car. Again, avoid dark and isolated areas, including beaches.

Should you find yourself an unlikely victim of crime during your vacation in Saba, contact the local authorities immediately. You should also contact your nearest embassy or consular agent, who may be able to assist you in securing legal, medical, or financial help.

I only post this as an example of "common sense precautions" from a country that has little to no crime. It is not a comparison between countries.

Notice they also have recommendations should you find yourself a victim of crime during your vacation. Why would they do this? Simply because crime can happen even if you take precautions. Precautions are a way of reducing your chance of becoming a crime victim, not a guarantee that you will not be a victim of crime.

Now:
We should all boycott travel to the USA because the government has not stopped crime. We should choose another destination that is safer such as Roatan or Cozumel... or anywhere other than Bonaire where the "whitewashing" and "pixie dust" gets into your gear to ruin it

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

I would not have considered myself a "BB." I have been to Bonaire, but only once. I intend to return. Well, maybe. I have encouraged people to go there but have expressed concern about the crime rate, which appears from discussions on Bonaire Talk to be much more significant than has been mentioned here. But is it so wrong to be frank and open about this?

There is nothing wrong to be frank and open about this. And, so far you have been frank and open. I do not think his post is directed at you. It is more directed at those who claim every post that does not proclaim "Bonaire is enemy #1" must be "whitewashing" the "facts" or spreading "pixie dust" that there is no crime on Bonaire.

I have never used the terms whitewash or pixie dust, although there does seem to be tremendous hostility by some to any mention of thefts and burglaries on the island, and an absolute terror of discussing the break-ins to condo and hotel rooms, including rooms that are occupied at the time.

It is not hostility toward "any mention of thefts and burglaries" it is hostility toward the same people "banging and banging and banging" the same line over and over again on the same thread.
(The above will be quoted...)
(Unfortunately, this will not be quoted...)
When someone posts about thefts, burglaries and break-ins we all have questions. We have questions for which we would like the answers. Generally, we get down to the 3rd or 4th posting and the "BBs" begin to bash with posts of "See, see... How can you even THINK of going to Bonaire..." That's not an answer to the questions we have, and its not a response to anything in the thread...

Unfortunately the thread begins to turn toward that "BB" post and away from the original thread that may have offered some legitimate information to help us all.
(Below will be taken out of context...)
Break-ins are horrible no matter where you are in the world. Especially if you are there when it happens. We've had to wade through the "BBs" and ask questions only to be side-tracked by "BBs" posts directed at our posts, but unrelated to the questions we are asking. By the time we could have received an answer from the OP, the thread has turned away from the original post and toward defending "BBs" accusing posts.

Am I now a member of that "church" Vince mentioned? If I get robbed, burglarized, or am a victim of theft, I believe it is the fault of the person doing those things. As far as I can tell, most if not all civil and criminal laws and religious principles around the world follow that same concept.

So, if my rental condo gets broken into and my belongings are stolen, it is my fault. If I am so foolhardy as to leave something as trivial as a sandwich, bottle of water or T shirt in my truck, I should not only expect it to get taken, but should accept that it is my fault and no one else's. When I stop by the dive shop later today, if I happen to see a tank or a nice BCD left in the bed of someone's truck, I guess I can take it and I am not to blame, right? Or is this a Bonaire-only rule?

Are you a member of that "church"?... No. If you get robbed, burglarized, or are a victim of theft it IS the fault of the people/person doing those things. But, there are precautions that should be taken no matter where you are to avoid becoming a victim... For the most part, these are the same precautions one takes at home and when on a trip...

I don't know where you are from... But... I certainly can't leave a shirt in my truck for a shore dive around here and expect it to be there when I return (locked car and windows or not here). If it IS taken, I know there were precautions I could have taken that would have avoided it being taken (leaving it at home). You better not leave your gear unattended at the dive shops in this area if you expect them to be there when you return from the dive shop. It's not a Bonaire-only rule. I live in South Florida. There are precautions I take to lessen my chance of being a crime victim here, just as I take precautions in Bonaire...

By speaking out have I now offended the Church of Bonaireology?

No. Again, I don't believe his post was directed at you or your post

 

[DiverVince]

Thanks CT..I could not have responded to JD any better!
**JD** I sincerely hope you do return to Bonaire and spend some quality time there enjoying all Bonaire has to offer. As CT indicated, I can confirm that my posting was not directed at you.

 

[keithdiver]

Excellent posting. Many of us on this board have been saying this for years, but there is a cadre of hard core Bonaire bashers (BBs) that you will never convince otherwise, and they will attack anyone who posts anything contrary to their "agenda".
Watch how they react and attack this post. :mooner:

The BBs are members of the church of "if something bad happens to me, it's someone else's fault". Never will they ever accept their own responsibility. And most of them have such limited time and experience on Bonaire that to read their rambling musings about crime and "whitewashing", and "pixie dust" is pathetic. But, the world is made up of all sorts of folks, it's just unfortunate that some are so ill informed, advised and biased.

My amazement at experiencing first hand the big differences between Bonaire and the U.S., formed the impetus for starting this thread. And I for one have been visiting this island on and off for some 25 years. Bonaire is a safe and wonderful island, with many, many fantastic people. Does the occasional bad thing happen, unfortunately yes. And I challenge anyone to show me anyplace on this globe inhabited by people where that sentence is false. It doesn't exists.

There is going to be crime anywhere you go !! You just have to be careful and not make it tempting for someone to do you in:shocked2:One of those common sense things.

 

[pilot fish]

Well said. Their rationale is truly stunning! It just floors me

Theft is caused by thieves. Theft is perpetrated by people who are simply greedy or unprincipled or have inadequate self restraint, or suffer from some moral or psychological defect, or live in a cultural setting in which theft is considered acceptable.
I grant that people in truly desperate situations like extreme hunger, drug addiction, and so on can be driven to such behavior when they otherwise would not do so, and in some small measure "bad kids" may cause some crimes, but not on the scale it occurs on Bonaire.

"Kids that have a future don't hide behind bushes on lonely dive sites, waiting for prey." Sure they do, if they are taught that stealing from tourists is okay by their friends and families. Of course the do, if they are working with their father, uncle, a gang or others. Naturally they do, when their social group is unconcerned about such behavior and, as in Bonaire, there is simply no consequence for the behavior.

To most normal, self-respecting and morally-centered people in virtually every developed society, the fact that someone has left a shirt in their truck or a laptop in their hotel room, or left their screen door open to enjoy a sea breeze, or the disparity in wealth between a thief and his victim, does not justify theft.

I suppose women dressed suggestively deserve to be raped? Perhaps if I set my briefcase down on the train seat next to me I deserve to have it taken? Maybe an obviously intoxicated person walking down the street deserves to be mugged? Where does such a philosophy stop?

Do you really maintain that it is carelessness to keep valuables in a house?!

Craziness.

It is this kind of denial and excuse-making that keeps these Bonaire crime debates going. Most of us know that crime occurs "everywhere" and Bonaire is no exception, if perhaps more extreme than some places.

But unlike other destinations there is this pervasive head-in-the-sand attitude about Bonaire that fuels the debates and frustrates people. Crime on Bonaire is concealed whenever possible and when that fails, it is always the kids, or people from Trinidad, Aruba, Curacao or the Dominican Republic, or it is the victims' fault, or due to the economy, or people overstating the problem or other divers doing the thefts, or some other excuse, and THAT is Bonaire's true problem in this regard.

 

[pilot fish]

Although Saba is said by many to be largely crime free, it is always wise to take common sense precautions when you are traveling abroad. Travelers should always have their credit cards, cash, and other important documents such as passports in secure and concealed locations. Always lock hotel doors, and take advantage of hotel safes.] from cool tech C&P

But what you are not understanding is that on Bonaire, unlike safe Saba -I have been to both- even when you lock stuff away in the proper places, and follow this sound advice and put stuff in the safe, the theives on Bonaire break into your locked rented condo, or hotel room, and rip out the safe from the wall with crow bars. See, that's the difference.

 

[Mike]

Theft is caused by thieves. Theft is perpetrated by people who are simply greedy or unprincipled or have inadequate self restraint, or suffer from some moral or psychological defect, or live in a cultural setting in which theft is considered acceptable.

I grant that people in truly desperate situations like extreme hunger, drug addiction, and so on can be driven to such behavior when they otherwise would not do so, and in some small measure "bad kids" may cause some crimes, but not on the scale it occurs on Bonaire.

"Kids that have a future don't hide behind bushes on lonely dive sites, waiting for prey." Sure they do, if they are taught that stealing from tourists is okay by their friends and families. Of course the do, if they are working with their father, uncle, a gang or others. Naturally they do, when their social group is unconcerned about such behavior and, as in Bonaire, there is simply no consequence for the behavior.

To most normal, self-respecting and morally-centered people in virtually every developed society, the fact that someone has left a shirt in their truck or a laptop in their hotel room, or left their screen door open to enjoy a sea breeze, or the disparity in wealth between a thief and his victim, does not justify theft.

I suppose women dressed suggestively deserve to be raped? Perhaps if I set my briefcase down on the train seat next to me I deserve to have it taken? Maybe an obviously intoxicated person walking down the street deserves to be mugged? Where does such a philosophy stop?

Do you really maintain that it is carelessness to keep valuables in a house?!

Craziness.

It is this kind of denial and excuse-making that keeps these Bonaire crime debates going. Most of us know that crime occurs "everywhere" and Bonaire is no exception, if perhaps more extreme than some places.

But unlike other destinations there is this pervasive head-in-the-sand attitude about Bonaire that fuels the debates and frustrates people. Crime on Bonaire is concealed whenever possible and when that fails, it is always the kids, or people from Trinidad, Aruba, Curacao or the Dominican Republic, or it is the victims' fault, or due to the economy, or people overstating the problem or other divers doing the thefts, or some other excuse, and THAT is Bonaire's true problem in this regard.

Well said. I don't know how anybody can can see it any other way then the way you put it unless they have another agenda or for whatever reason want to be in denial.

I was talking to somebody at a dive shop about going to Bonaire and they brought up the crime issue, they brought up a point that I thought is worth repeating. It was in regard to how some of the white washers have a pretty predictable series of points they like to make, one of them being the comparison to crime in the US.

The person I was talking to was from a small town and had a logical point of view in regard to that topic.

He said Bonaire has a population of under 15,000 residents, this person is from a small town, about 13,000 people. He said the irony of their argument is in his town of 13K people most people don't lock their doors, they leave their car keys in their cars and trucks when they go shopping etc...

On fortress Bonaire I believe it's a bit different than a similar small town in the USA, but what do we know?

An island of less then 15,000 people and they can't control the crime. Something don't smell right to me...