On my last dive to 400 Ft...

[Santa]

I'm wondering if this sensitiviy between parts of the rec and tech communities has to do with very different types of personalities clashing.

To clarify: Lots of my coldwater dive buddies shun tropical diving - not because it's easy but because they feel "nothing happens". These are action types that like to do stuff under water, like weld a pipeline or raise a galleon. They like walking on the bottom in weighted boots not finning about in a merry daze.

Me, I'm more of a meditative type. I like to school and watch the scenery. I have tried to pitch tropical diving to these guys but it's dawning on me that they honestly would be bored with it. THey are not diving to marvel at cute little fishies. They are not even into visibility: 5-10 metres - "aah refreshing, now lets raise that Nazi propeller!".

Hugely different goals and motivation. But I'm happy. Gives me the opportunity to raise the odd Nazi propeller.

 

[mnj1233]

Tech divers IMO are tech divers by design. No diver can back their way into this title by accident. If you are one, then you became one with the intent to exceed limits others untrained should not. You dont become one by diving to 150'. Gas management, mixtures, deco planning and execution of all the above is truly for those who understand the risks and except them. An LDS that pushes tech diving is insane. An LDS that supports tech divers is a GEM. My LDS is very careful whom they support in this endeavor and rightfully so. Bottom line its not about selling gear thats tech dive usable its about education.

 

[TSandM]

A couple of months ago, I did a dive with NW Grateful Diver. A couple of divers we knew showed up and were gearing up while we were. They are technical divers and were gearing up in doubles. Bob and I went down and had a great dive -- visibility was much better than usual and we saw a lot of cool critters. We got out while the other two were still underwater.

A couple of days later, I ran into one of them, and asked, "Did you have a good dive the other night?" And he said, "Yeah." And I said, "The viz was really good, wasn't it?" And he said, "Not where WE were. WE don't dive where YOU guys dive. WE went about 4000 feet down the middle of the channel. Viz was cruddy," and he added with a disgusted tone, "All we saw was sharks."

And I had a funny reaction to this exchange: He dove deeper and far more expensively than I did (on trimix) and at higher risk, and the visibility stunk and he didn't see anything he was excited about seeing (I would have liked to see the sharks, personally). Why did he do it? It was clear from his tone that he thought he had done something "better" than what we did, but we enjoyed OUR dive.

 

[mnj1233]

A couple of months ago, I did a dive with NW Grateful Diver. A couple of divers we knew showed up and were gearing up while we were. They are technical divers and were gearing up in doubles. Bob and I went down and had a great dive -- visibility was much better than usual and we saw a lot of cool critters. We got out while the other two were still underwater.

A couple of days later, I ran into one of them, and asked, "Did you have a good dive the other night?" And he said, "Yeah." And I said, "The viz was really good, wasn't it?" And he said, "Not where WE were. WE don't dive where YOU guys dive. WE went about 4000 feet down the middle of the channel. Viz was cruddy," and he added with a disgusted tone, "All we saw was sharks."

And I had a funny reaction to this exchange: He dove deeper and far more expensively than I did (on trimix) and at higher risk, and the visibility stunk and he didn't see anything he was excited about seeing (I would have liked to see the sharks, personally). Why did he do it? It was clear from his tone that he thought he had done something "better" than what we did, but we enjoyed OUR dive.

I cant speak for "Him" but he may truly have had a bigger thrill doing something he worked so hard to do. Its not all about depth. A true tech diver can be as thrilled executing a 180' successfully as a dive to 250'. Sorry you think techies feel superior but they DONT. They just find satisfaction in a different enviornment.

 

[Soggy]

There are a couple different types of tech divers: the ones who dive to a certain depth because there is something they want to see, and the ones that dive to a particular depth because it is at that depth. I am in the first group and try to stay away from the second.

 

[Rick Inman]

"All we saw was sharks."

... but we enjoyed OUR dive.

And you've got better grammar, too. eyebrow

 

[TheRedHead]

When I was swimming through the Devil's Throat, packed between divers in front and behind me, I remember thinking, if something goes sideways here, it won't be pretty. That was on the second tunnel. On the third one - the one that empties out at around 130' - I went first and the DM went last in line.

You must have missed the one that exits at 140 feet. I've never done it with more than 4 divers using 120s. I think the biggest danger would be having a diver panic while in the throat and then trying to turn around and getting stuck. A dive op won't take you there unless they have checked out your skills.

I have to admit I'm very much attracted to swimthroughs and caverns and I plan on getting cavern certified next spring.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Thousands of divers dive Devil's Throat every year. They're all insane?

Absolutely.

Under some agencies standards an overhead at 130 ft is even off limits to a trained cavern divers and a cave instructor couldn't conduct training in them because you're limited to a total of 130 ft (depth + penetration). At 129 ft, you could go 1 ft in. Similar limits apply to entry level wreck penetration training...130 ft total. That means that even if the penetration is short enough that you could consider it a swim through rather than a cave, at that depth, virtually any overhead is boyind the recommended limits for entry level certified cavern/cave and wreck divers. PADI's own cavern and wreck standards read just this way. At 130 ft you are allowed ZERO penetration....nothing, nada, not a single inch!

Now, if people who specialize in overhead dive training have decided that it isn't a good idea, what makes all those non-overhead trained OW, AOW and DM's in Cozumel so smart especially without ever having demonstrated the skills that any cave instructor would need to see in OW before taking them into any overhead environment? The answer of course is that they just don't realize how bad things could get, how fast or what it would take to get out of it. Ignorance is bliss.

After having gone through cave training and having some experience in caves, there isn't enough money on the face of the planet to get me into one of those "swim throughs" with non-overhead trained/equiped recreational divers in front and behind me.


I don't know about devils throad specifically but many of the swim through divers are diving would more correctly be considered coral caves. One of the three main types of caves you learn something about during cave training.

How many of those divers have the gas reserves to get themselves and a buddy to the surface from the deepest point of penetration or even know how to figure how much that is?

Are there any places in those swim throughs that require single file travel? That would be considered as a minor restriction and a trained entry level cave diver would consider it off limits until apprentice of full cave I guess depending on the agency. That's because while in that restriction (single file travel) you're essentially solo. Even if you could get gas from another diver, you wouldn't be able to reavel without a long hose and knowing how to use it. That's one of the drills you do about a thousand times in cave training. How many times have any of those divers practiced sharing air during simgle file travel? Unless you've done it it's hard to imagin what a mess it can be.

How many of those divers have any redundancy at all?

What about conservation? Anyliving stuff in those "swim throughs" or even dead formations that we should want to preserve? I know better than to think that the majority of recreational divers can move through an area of limited size without bouncing off the cieling and walls.

Now I'll concede that on most dives, nothing at all is going to go wrong. A total novice can cruise through a cave or do a very deep staged decompression dive and if nothing goes wrong they'll do just fine. However, should something go wrong, few of those divers stand a very good chance successfuly coping nor do they have any training or experience to lead them to believe that they do. We see it all the time even around here. A simple problem like a free flow and divers are injured during the rapid ascent that results. Place that same problem in an overhead at 130 ft. Those divers are close to the edge than they know.

Yep. Insane on the part of the divers and irresponsible on the part of the pros who lead them.

 

[Soggy]

A dive op won't take you there unless they have checked out your skills.

By checking out your skills, I'm assuming you mean S-drill w/ long hose while swimming single file with no mask. I'm sure they also make sure you can calculate thirds minus rock bottom on that single aluminum 80 at 130ft. Right?

 

[MikeFerrara]

You must have missed the one that exits at 140 feet. I've never done it with more than 4 divers using 120s. I think the biggest danger would be having a diver panic while in the throat and then trying to turn around and getting stuck. A dive op won't take you there unless they have checked out your skills.

And what kind of skills is it that they check out and how?

A cave instructor would run you through line drills on land and in OW before ever taking you into an overhead environment including lights out (or eyes closed), no mask and airsharing and following a line by feel and in touch contact with your buddy. You would also have to demonstrate proficiency in anti silting techniques (trim and various kicks). That's both for the sake of the divers and for the sake of the environment. At least part of the classroom and written testing would also probably need to be completed before entering an overhead. Then you would know that a coral cave is one of the types of caves you're being trained for. In most cavern classes the first trip into an overhead is going to be one with pleny of room where you will again demonstrate the swimming techniques...nothing the least bit small or confining. Again, for the sake of both the divers and the environment.