On my last dive to 400 Ft...

[rockjock3]

Are there any places in those swim throughs that require single file travel? That would be considered as a minor restriction and a trained entry level cave diver would consider it off limits until apprentice of full cave I guess depending on the agency. That's because while in that restriction (single file travel) you're essentially solo. Even if you could get gas from another diver, you wouldn't be able to reavel without a long hose and knowing how to use it. That's one of the drills you do about a thousand times in cave training. How many times have any of those divers practiced sharing air during simgle file travel? Unless you've done it it's hard to imagin what a mess it can be.

.

Now, I'm not saying that taking these risks is a good idea, it isn't. Here is where the friction starts though. You are suggesting a long hose is not in the realm of rec divers and you are wrong. Most of my friends dive a 7ft hose and we practice using it often. We don't tech dive and a long hose is not a tech invention either. We use long hose because we don't care to have to hug the other person while sharing air. We have never had to share air but still have the long hose and utilize it within the limits of our training.

 

[cnctina]

Just as boring when tech divers bash OW instructors and both of them bash newbies and then everybody bashes the agencies. Does anyone here have any fun diving??

Lets not forget the part of bashing their equipment chioce.

 

[TheRedHead]

Why is that?

Why do you think that you can shed some lead when diving a negative steel tank as opposed to an AL 80 which becomes positively buoyant at the end of a dive?

 

[JeffG]

Why do you think that you can shed some lead when diving a negative steel tank as opposed to an AL 80 which becomes positively buoyant at the end of a dive?

You really didn't answer the question...How is it harder to manage? Swing weight is the same for the same volume of gas regardless of tank composition.


Care to try again?

It's a lot harder to manage gas and buoyancy at the end of a dive with an 80.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Then perhaps you can define it as a cavern, but it is very short. I used to dive in a quarry that had a submerged pvc pipe about 20 feet long one could swimthrough. Is that an overhead?

In Devil's Throat, I think the most dangerous aspect would be narcosis and becomming paranoid. You're going one way in and straight through so if you keep going forward, you are going to emerge rather quickly into open water. There is also a danger of getting trapped on the ceiling if you cannot control your buoyancy.

As I said, it is a huge reef with many swimthroughs and can be dived numerous ways. I stole the following description from Aldora's site (and this is the way they dive it). They're calling it a cave:


The entrance to the Devil’s Throat cave is at 90 feet and out of the current the dive guide will check for air supply and gear of each diver. When all are ready the cave can be entered. A nice sandy bottom is inside and there is a reasonable amount of light. To the left and down is a very dark spot. That is the Devil’s Throat which is about 3 feet in diameter that leads down at a 45 degree angle. Dark at first, light is soon encountered and it is most fun to go through without a flashlight. Don’t worry about contacting the wall—it is smooth and finely polished by the impact of tanks! Make sure that you are following the diver in front of you, and stay up with him or her.

You well first see an exit to the right which is at 120 feet. If the group has adequate air and no deco time the dive guide will exit further down 130 feet. Don’t dwell there, but rise to the right and enter a very large cavern that some also call the Cathedral. There the group should dump the air from the BCs and kneel in the sand at 80 feet, check air supply and the dive guide will illuminate the very famous yellow sponge that has grown in the shape of a cross. This author did that one Easter Morning and could actually hear the squeals of delight from the ladies in the group!

From the Cathedral you will exit another swimthrough to the wall once again and do a vertical headfirst descent through a small crack in a coral head, down what we call the Plunge. Again at 130 feet you will need to rise again, through a huge arch to a sandy location at 70 feet. Another gear and air check and then the dive guide will again enter the coral head, going back toward the Plunge but through some completely new swimthroughs. Not down the Plunge again though as no deco time is pretty well gone, but back up through the huge arch to the sandy area at 70 feet. If there is adequate air supply for all, the dive guide will swim back south hugging the sand and coral head to stay out of the current, getting near the Devil’s Throat Cave one more time.

Now the exercise is over, rise to the coral head tops and cruise the wall watching your air bubbles percolating up from the caves down below. Glide along the wall and when the coral head ends you will ascend to the safety stop. The normal dive time for this dive with high capacity tanks is 50 minutes overall.

The cathedral with the cross didn't inspire any squeals from me. The Cathedral without the throat is considered an "intermediate" dive in the guide books.

I saw the words cave and dark.

Another thing you'll learn about in cave training is the rules of accident analysis. the result of that analysis is 5 rules that all cave divers and all overhead divers ought to follow because not following them has killed so many divers.

Training...have it.
Lights... have three. In a cavern, the sun counts as one of them. You need to bring 2 more.
A continuous guid line to the surface...we don't count on being able to see or know our way out.
Depth...limit to 130 ft. These days most of us limit it to an END of 130 ft or less.
Gas...reserve two thirds of your supply for your exit. Of course ascent gas different size tanks amoung diver needs to be considered in the calculations.

Why do I assume the Cozumel divers are stupid? Because they violate all 5 and violating only one has proven fatal many times. Do you have a better word than stupid?

I l;ove this one

There the group should dump the air from the BCs and kneel in the sand at 80 feet, check air supply and the dive guide will illuminate the very famous yellow sponge that has grown in the shape of a cross.

Kneel and check your air? Check for what? That it's not at zero yet or that you have not yet reached the turn pressure that you calculated when you figuired your thirds?

I like this one too

The entrance to the Devil’s Throat cave is at 90 feet and out of the current the dive guide will check for air supply and gear of each diver.

Talk about a trust-me dive. Another thing you'll hear about in your cave training.

The word stupid is starting to sound like a very kind understatement.

 

[rockjock3]

They check you out by diving with you on several dives progessively deeper making sure you can complete those dives including mid-water hanging stops and surface safely. I don't dive Devil's Throat on an AL 80. It's a lot harder to manage gas and buoyancy at the end of a dive with an 80. 80s suck, IMO, and I avoid them when possible.

Possibly if some ones skills lack in the gas managment or bouyancy area. I could dive a steel tank but considering my current weight requirement I would be negative without carrying any weight. I could wear a 2 mil thicker wetsuit and overheat though. And considering that I am in the process of losing about 10-15lbs I would have to go to a steel tank that was smaller than 72 just to try and stay neutral versus negative.

 

[TheRedHead]

You really didn't answer the question...How is it harder to manage? Swing weight is the same for the same volume of gas regardless of tank composition.


Care to try again?

Swing weight could be same if you use the same amount of gas. Diving with a negatively buoyant tank allows you to wear less weight initially. You don't need to pump as much air into your BC at depth to compensate for the extra buoyancy of the AL 80. I find the extra 5 pounds and the added air to compensate for it annoying. I dive with a skin and 4 lbs of dumpable weight using a steel 100. It's perfect for me.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Now, I'm not saying that taking these risks is a good idea, it isn't. Here is where the friction starts though. You are suggesting a long hose is not in the realm of rec divers and you are wrong. Most of my friends dive a 7ft hose and we practice using it often. We don't tech dive and a long hose is not a tech invention either. We use long hose because we don't care to have to hug the other person while sharing air. We have never had to share air but still have the long hose and utilize it within the limits of our training.

He don't know me very well do he

I am absolutely not suggesting that a long hose is outside the realm of recreational divers. In fact, I can't think of a better way to dive than a long primary with a backup on a necklace in all environments other than maybe those that require sidemount or no mount. Actually, as far as I know it is a "tech" invention along with actos, a bc, manifolds and who knows what else.

 

[TheRedHead]

Why do I assume the Cozumel divers are stupid? Because they violate all 5 and violating only one has proven fatal many times. Do you have a better word than stupid?

Well, I've not done the kneeling thing to check my gas. I just used that description as it was fairly complete and accurate about the dive conditions.

What you are saying is that diver should not dive Devil's Throat. You can't run a continuous line from the surface on a drift dive. The facts are, in case anyone is interested in facts rather than speculation, is that this dive hasn't proved fatal and is done safely every day. People have gotten bent at Punta Sur, but no has died in Devil's Throat as far as I know. It is not a dive for newbies, those inexperienced with depth, or fearful divers.

I see tech divers attempting to impose tech procedures on rec divers and scaring newbies to the point they think they need ponies to dive Bonaire. I see it as the opposite extreme of incaution to the point of an OOA incident - the overplanning to the point of paranoia for very simple dives in many cases.

There are so many cautions expressed and fears eluciated upon, I don't see how anyone does a dive at all without being paralyzed with fear.

 

[TheRedHead]

Possibly if some ones skills lack in the gas managment or bouyancy area. I could dive a steel tank but considering my current weight requirement I would be negative without carrying any weight. I could wear a 2 mil thicker wetsuit and overheat though. And considering that I am in the process of losing about 10-15lbs I would have to go to a steel tank that was smaller than 72 just to try and stay neutral versus negative.

So you think it is NOT easier to manage gas with 120 cu ft. than 80 at 130 feet? However, people do manage this dive on an AL 80. I just prefer to bring more gas.