Old steels denied fills due to store "policy"

[Ana]

When you emailed the shop with your issues they asked for more details? That sounds reasonable as I would want all the facts before I rendered any decision or took a position.

Let's face it . A tank is the single cheapest pice of scuba gear any one can own.

What is a reasonable life expectancy for a scuba tank?

How would you feel If your tank failed well being filled and killed the "tank monkey "?

Did the shop offer you rental or loaner tanks so you could atleast salvage your weekend?

I dont think the shop operator is out of line by refusing to fill a 48 year old tank.
Yes it may have passed vis and hydro but when you fill somany tanks a year eventually the law of averages will catch up to you.

This will not be the last time a shop will refuse to fill those tanks .
I reccomend you spend $600 and get some new tanks.

When I emailed the shop, I was asking for their policy. How hard was it to reply with their policy?
I'm not LDS owner but I figured something on the lines of:
"Our policy states XYZ, too bad you are outside of those parameters"

Instead they asked me for the manufacturer and the age. Why ask for manufacturer, if the supposedly policy only affects the age? who gives a damn if some apprentice welders made the tanks in their lunch our.

As far as replacing them? I don't see the need. I would buy additional ones (of any age) but they aren't easily available that I know off. Your recommendation doesn't make sense to me, $600 may just be enough to get a couple the new steels in the current market.

Pompano Dive Center appears to be my store now, but I get the feeling my husband was sorry I found the place. He was ready to go compressor shopping.

 

[tmassey]

II'm simply asking how many years or pressure cycles is a reasonable life expectancy for a scuba tank?

If asked seriously (and not rhetorically, as you did), this is actually a good question. So, the answer:

Possible? Infinite. Reasonable (which is what you asked)? Hundreds of thousands of fills. Yes, hundreds of thousands. Time? Not really an issue.

How do we *know* that tank is still safe? A hydro. A hydro does more than test the tank's ability to hold pressure. It does do that, but it's much pickier than that. It measures how much the tank *expands* while filling (which tells if the tank is being stressed at that level), and *contracts* when emptying (which tells if the tank is damaged by the process.) If the tank expands a certain amount (not too much and not too little!) we know the metal is acting like it's supposed to resisting the pressure. If the tank contracts back where it's supposed to, we know it's ready to do it again.

How do we know all of this? Centuries of metal knowledge and experience. We know if the tank stays in the defined range, it is fine. No matter 'how many times it's been filled, tumbled, etc. etc. etc.' The tank is still working as designed.

Could something happen *after* a hydro? Sure. That's where vis comes in. It's a quick way to see if something has changed. Are you a trained visual inspector? If not, you should become. It's like $200 or so for the class. Even if you never vis a tank yourself (outside of class), it's worth it. The biggest surprise for me was how *MUCH* damage is perfectly fine. I don't have my book in front of me, but the amount of pitting that is allowed is *WAY* more than anyone's emotional "gut" would tell them is OK. Like I was shocked.

It might just help you to exhale about tank safety. The margin built into these tanks is *crazy*.

And if the tank has been *demonstrated* to be 100% within the narrow specs for a tank with crazy margins, why *wouldn't* you expect it to be filled?

 

[fullytek]

You emailed to complain about how you feel entitled to your stuff being filled regardless of the safety of the shop staff.

You have been asked on this form to provide photos and any history on these tanks and you haven't provided them .

They asked for more information they are not being unreasonable?

Ok you have a new shop that finds the risk of filling your junk as acceptable my point is if you travel to other destinations you shouldn't be surprised when you are refused a fill.

Last I checked both steel and aluminum tanks are made from recyclable materials. I think the environmental footprint of manufacturing new tanks is an acceptable cost compared to a person's life.

 

[Wookie]

I'm not giving any advise.

I'm simply asking how many years or pressure cycles is a reasonable life expectancy for a scuba tank?

How about this . If you are so confident that your 48 year old tanks are safe then you must be willing to bare hug the tank well the " untrained tank monkey " fills it?

Let me refresh you.

I reccomend you spend $600 and get some new tanks.

What did you make this recommendation based on?

Yes, I would (and did for 20 years) "hug the tank well", although only a fool fills a steel tank in a water bath based on MY feels. As well as lots of evidence from PSI.

 

[tmassey]

I think the environmental footprint of manufacturing new tanks is an acceptable cost compared to a person's life.

Please deeply read and consider False dilemma - Wikipedia . Your statements (they aren't even "logical arguments") are backed by nothing other than your uninformed intuition. Buying new tanks does not save a life. Using an old tank does not take a life.

And what makes you think newer tanks are safer? I can tell you that 3AA tanks have higher margins of capability (I won't say "safety") than SP or E tanks (as in, new steel tanks). That's because the metallurgy in newer tanks are more tightly controlled. There is a very real case that those old tanks are "safer" than new ones. But it's irrelevant: both have *huge* margins of safety. And with hydrostatic testing, they have been *confirmed* to be within their *original* margin of safety!

You know that filling a SCUBA tank is *WAY* safer than being near a dog, right? All Dog Bite Statistics So let's make things safer: *MY* intuition is that all pets should be destroyed after 3 years. After all, we all know dogs get stronger, and older dogs get *much* more cranky than puppies. NO ONE should have a dog older than 3 years. And we're all NOW SAFER! YAY!

My argument is *identical* to yours, except I have stats, too.

Oh, and I'm done with this line of reasoning. Unless someone has specific questions about hydros, vis, etc. -- and even then, I'm sure there's much more qualified people to answer.

 

[fullytek]

Are you a trained visual inspector? If not, you should become. It's like $200 or so for the class.

My point exactly. A $200 class qualifies someone to decide if a pressure vessel is safe or not.
Can you blame a local dive shop for having second thoughts before filling?

 

[fullytek]

You know that filling a SCUBA tank is *WAY* safer than being near a dog, right? .

Perhaps filling scuba tanks is so save because of the polices and intuition of shop owners like the one in question.

 

[tmassey]

My point exactly. A $200 class qualifies someone to decide if a pressure vessel is safe or not.
Can you blame a local dive shop for having second thoughts before filling?

OK, I lied. I will reply to this.

No, $200 does not make someone able to say if a pressure vessel is safe. DOT / TCA has created standards that, if followed, *they* say create a safe pressure vessel. And they ONLY MANDATE a 5-year HYDRO cycle. VIP is *beyond* that.

And we are not "deciding if a pressure vessel is safe." We are determining if conditions of the tank have changed to put it outside of what DOT and TCA consider a safe pressure vessel.

If DOT and TCA are OK with it, what makes you think that your emotional intuition is SO MUCH better?!?

NOW I'm done.

 

[tmassey]

Here's a few more:

Post hoc ergo propter hoc - Wikipedia (after this, therefore because of this)
Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

Actually, *MOST* of these: 15 Logical Fallacies You Should Know Before Getting Into a Debate

 

[fullytek]

My point is if I'm not the one who inspected the tank then I'm trusting a stranger who took a $200 course.