Octopus free-flow at depth

[Peter Guy]

Thanks to the OP for posting his incident.

Thanks to DA for his response.

All, please, get thicker skins -- not too thick, but thicker! When you post about a screw up (by definition things got screwed up) you really do need to be able to step back and take an arrow or two.

OP -- I have had a couple of free flows (generally RIGHT after getting a reg serviced which is why I'll never go on vacation without having dived my gear after servicing) and they are a pain. My solution has been to shut off the gas (it does help when I'm diving doubles!). I've also had my buddy have a full blow free flow when diving singles -- guess what, the solution was to shut off her gas (after donating my reg).

At the very least, I think we all should have 2 take aways from this incident:

a. Free flows happen and if your regs are in a position where they can't be seen (or heard), you should reconsider where they are positioned; and

b. Staying close enough (relative) to your buddy can be difficult especially in current and clear water -- but when you've had a gear issue, you might want to be particularly cognizant of staying close to your buddy.

 

[Hintermann]

Thanks for sharing your story. We can all learn from it.

Along the lines of what Rick asked...
Would you consider diving closer to your buddy next time?
.

Thank YOU - and also OpenmindOW and Leejnd for your support. When I read DA's response I did fleetingly wonder if I did the right thing in posting the incident in the first place but some your and those other reactions have reassured me. I can understand constructive criticism but feel that there is a civilised way to put it across.

As for your question about staying close to my buddy, I always try to do so. If anything, one or two felt that I was too close at times. I try to achieve a happy medium between watching the marine life and watching the buddy. In 139 dives I have never 'lost' a buddy as such but admit that there have been situations where we have been further apart than what the manual advises. That usually happens when one or the other is distracted by a particularly interesting item - say a whale shark or manta ray - and has paused to photograph it.

Curiously enough Werner and I enjoyed buddying each other on that liveaboard trip and that incident notwithstanding, I still consider him as the best dive buddy that I have had so far.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Thank YOU - and also OpenmindOW and Leejnd for your support. When I read DA's response I did fleetingly wonder if I did the right thing in posting the incident in the first place ...

This is the "Near misses & Lessons Learned" forum.
It's the right place to post things like this... but remember the reason for the forum...
It is also the right place to acknowledge the lessons to be taken from the incident, how you handled it and even some of the thoughts you and others have shared here.
Here are a few:
Lesson #1: Little freeflows can get bigger; keep an eye on it.
Lesson #2: Position your regs so you can detect a freeflow before it surprises you.
Lesson #3: Position your tank so you can reach and manipulate the valve.
Lesson #4: Maintain a buddy position where air can be shared quickly and easily.
Lesson #5: You can stop a freeflowing second stage by either turning off the gas or crimping the hose.
Lesson #6: If your gas supply's getting low, it is far better to ascend early and slowly from a safety stop than to wait until you have to "shoot up" those last 15 feet.
Lesson #7: You can reduce your rate of gas loss (and increase your available breathing gas) during a freeflow by breathing the free flowing regulator and metering the gas with the tank valve.
Take these lessons to heart and your future diving will be safer and more fun.
Rick

 

[Leejnd]

All, please, get thicker skins -- not too thick, but thicker! When you post about a screw up (by definition things got screwed up) you really do need to be able to step back and take an arrow or two.

Peter, I get what you are saying. And I agree that if you are going to post an incident in here, you need to expect, and be prepared for, a full analysis, including addressing the things you might have done wrong. In my own incident write-up, I tried to do that in advance - I identified the mistakes I made and the lessons I personally learned from the incident, and included those in my post. Some people felt they had to rub my nose in them anyway, even though I'd already taken responsibility for my judgment errors...but I knew that would happen, and accepted it.

What I CAN'T tolerate in this forum, however, are the snarky, insulting posts that I see way too often. And that "take up knitting instead of diving" comment falls squarely in that category. I want to mention here that DA did apologize for that already, so I don't mean to harp on it (kudos for that, DA). But it's an excellent example of the type of responses in here that drive away divers from posting their incidents. And if we keep doing that, who's going to post in here? Think of all the excellent learning opportunities we'll all miss, because some people can't keep their rudeness, arrogance and self-righteous superiority in check.

This is certainly not unique to this message board. It's a well-known phenomenon of virtually any message board where people can "hide behind their keyboard", so to speak. But I believe that we have a larger responsibility in this forum. We are all part of this community, and we are participating in a dangerous activity that can (and does) result in death if things go wrong. We need to support each other in our efforts to be better, safer divers.

Dogpiling, insulting, and belittling the brave souls who post their incidents in here has the opposite effect.

I hope THIS has been a lesson to the other readers of this forum. Let's try to keep it civil in here, okay?

 

[Peter_C]

Would anyone have suggested breathing off the octo upon the first sign of bubbles, before it free flowed?

If one of my second stages was bubbling with the knob closed I would have ended the dive.

Experiences like this make me appreciate my adjustable second stages more and more. I tune my main (Long hose) second stage to just barely bubble at depth with the knob full open. Plus I routinely, as in daily, check my IP with a gauge.

 

[Hintermann]

=Rick Murchison;4869808]Here are a few:
Lesson #1: Little freeflows can get bigger; keep an eye on it. Will do.

Mine stopped intially and everything seemed OK and so I decided to continue the dive with the guide's approval. Obviously, everything was NOT ok as I later found out.

Lesson #2: Position your regs so you can detect a freeflow before it surprises you.

I do now.

Lesson #3: Position your tank so you can reach and manipulate the valve.

That, I cannot do, I'm afraid. All my diving is recreational holiday diving and although I use my own kit, as far as tanks and weights are concerned, I am at the mercy of the dive operators. With the European luggage restrictions, taking one's own tank is out of the question. With the sort of tank and valve that almost all holiday centres provide in places like Red Sea, Maldives, Thailand, Malta etc where I have done most of my diving, it is physically impossible to reach back to turn the valve. Believe me, I have tried.

Lesson #4: Maintain a buddy position where air can be shared quickly and easily.

As I have said, I normally do. That was an unusual set of circumstances.

Lesson #5: You can stop a freeflowing second stage by crimping the hose

. I did not know about crimping the hose. I'll try it the next time I have a freeflow; maybe practice in the pool.

Lesson #6: If your gas supply's getting low, it is far better to ascend early and slowly from a safety stop than to wait until you have to "shoot up" those last 15 feet

. As I have explained, I did not know that my gas supply was low until I checked just before the freeflow. It seemed all right only 5 minutes before. I did acsend at a safe rate to 5m (16 feet) and being still able to breathe, was doing a drifting safety stop. I would have 'shot up' ONLY if my air ran out completely. As it was, the guide reached me about halfway through the stop and Werner was also almost there.

Lesson #7: You can reduce your rate of gas loss (and increase your available breathing gas) during a freeflow by breathing the free flowing regulator

. That is an excellent point that I had not thought of before. Thanks.

 

[Rick Murchison]

...With the sort of tank and valve that almost all holiday centres provide in places like Red Sea, Maldives, Thailand, Malta etc where I have done most of my diving, it is physically impossible to reach back to turn the valve. Believe me, I have tried...

This does not compute. Got any pictures? From the oldest backpack to the newest BC I know of, it is possible to position any Scuba tank where the valve can be reached. If you're using 11L tanks with K/DIN valves then you should be able to position the tank where you can easily reach the valve underwater, even if you have to reach back with your left hand to the bottom of the tank and push it up to where you can reach the valve with your right hand.
Or have you only tried to reach the valve above water (there, most folks can't do it, but it's underwater where it counts, eh?)
As I say, something just doesn't compute here...

Rick

 

[Hintermann]

This does not compute. Got any pictures? From the oldest backpack to the newest BC I know of, it is possible to position any Scuba tank where the valve can be reached. If you're using 11L tanks with K/DIN valves then you should be able to position the tank where you can easily reach the valve underwater, even if you have to reach back with your left hand to the bottom of the tank and push it up to where you can reach the valve with your right hand.
Or have you only tried to reach the valve above water (there, most folks can't do it, but it's underwater where it counts, eh?)
As I say, something just doesn't compute here...

Rick

I have not got any pictures but this point was discussed for other reasons in the UK dive forums and everyone agreed that it was not possible to reach the valve that way. I use a 15-litre steel tank and have tried it in the pool several times. By using the left hand to push the tank up I can just about touch the valve with my right hand but I was not able to get the proper leverage to turn it. I have normal range of shoulder joint mobility.

Before you ask, the tank IS positioned properly on the BCD but once worn, the valve is out of reach for all intents and purposes.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

@Hintermann: Have you considered mounting the tank with the valve not facing directly forward (opening toward the back of your head)? By mounting the tank with the valve turned a bit (pointing toward your left side), the valve knob will be much more accessible. Even someone with only a moderate level of flexibility should be able to operate the valve knob in this position. Give it a try the next time you're in the water.

Being able to manipulate your own tank valve will add another layer of self-sufficiency to your diving. It can give you more options in certain emergency scenarios.

 

[Rick Murchison]

I have not got any pictures but this point was discussed for other reasons in the UK dive forums and everyone agreed that it was not possible to reach the valve that way. I use a 15-litre steel tank and have tried it in the pool several times. By using the left hand to push the tank up I can just about touch the valve with my right hand but I was not able to get the proper leverage to turn it. I have normal range of shoulder joint mobility.

Before you ask, the tank IS positioned properly on the BCD but once worn, the valve is out of reach for all intents and purposes.

I dive 15L steel tanks too, have less than normal mobility in my shoulders 'cause I'm an old fart, and I can reach the valve.
It ain't easy, but it can be done.
With an 8" steel I have to grab the right shoulder strap and haul the tank over to the right and as high as I can get it to reach the valve (and back to the left to reach the left knob on an "H" valve).
Let me assure you that you can do it.
Every year there is at least one unnecessary Scuba death where some poor soul jumps in negatively buoyant with the tank valve off or nearly off, sinks and drowns because they were never trained to turn their own tank on in the water.
I say again, if your rig doesn't allow you to reach the valve, it needs changing.
(can you tell this is one of my pet peeves?)
Occasionally I have a tech student who says "I just can't reach that valve" - I say "I just can't pass you on this course." They always manage to figure out a way
I'm confident you will too.
Rick