Octopus free-flow at depth

[Leejnd]

That's an important question. A "No" answer to it would be a good reason to step back and consider taking up something more long the lines of knitting.

I'm sorry, but I think that is unnecessarily harsh, and utterly counterproductive to the purpose of this forum.

As someone who recently posted my own near-miss, and (predictably) was subjected to a rather unpleasant flurry of darts thrown at me, I can tell you that it takes a helluva lot of guts to post anything in here. I have seen it more times than I can count, and so has anyone else who has ever posted their own incident. The moment you post your near-miss experience, every action you took, every thought you had, every nuance of your dive is going to get picked apart like a turkey carcass on T-day. Somebody will find something wrong with every single thing you did, and come up with a lengthy laundry list of things you should have done.

I'm not saying that there is never any validity to any of these "darts". The whole purpose of this forum is to analyze incidents, learn from them, and become better, safer divers. What I AM saying is that this can be done without totally trashing the OP. Which is what happens in here all too often.

This last comment, DA, IMO falls squarely in the "totally trashing" category. Comments like this just make people reluctant to share their own near-miss stories, for fear of somebody doing that to them. Trust me, I thought long and hard before I posted my own...but I felt I had an important story to tell, so I sucked it up and took the darts that were thrown at me. But it didn't feel good, lemme tell ya. And I received quite a few PMs along the way saying "you got guts - I would NEVER post my story here!"

What does that say about how we treat divers brave enough to share their stories? What does that say about the future viability of this forum as a learning tool, if we turn on our own like freaking piranhas in a frenzy at the first opportunity?

Let's look at this specific incident, and I will tell you why I disagree with you, and why I feel your last comment was completely and utterly out-of-line.

1. You seem to feel that the fact that there was a leak at all was an indication of failure on the OP's part...he didn't do a proper pre-dive check, or whatever. That is an erroneous assumption. His subsequent post indicates that it's entirely possible this cropped up later into the dive, and there was no way he could have known about it in advance.

2. You criticized the location of the octopus. His subsequent post indicates that it's in an acceptable location, and the circumstances of the dive (location of others etc.) meant that nobody could have seen the bubbles from the leak.

3. You criticized his decision to ascend, rather than swim to his buddy. His subsequent post indicates that there were other circumstances that made ascending appear to be the best choice. You weren't there -- it's entirely possible that it WAS the best choice. Obviously, in an overhead environment that wouldn't have been an option...but this was OW, and it WAS an option, and one that evidently appeared to him to be the best one. In this case, I do believe you are practicing classic "Monday morning quarterbacking" inasmuch as you are making an assumption without all the facts...or with a possibly faulty interpretation of the facts presented. The OP, who WAS there, has every right to disagree with you...without being basically told by you that he should quit diving and start knitting.

4. You castigated him for supposedly putting other divers at risk by "obligating" the guide to follow him to help. Even before I read the OP's response, I disagreed with you on that...I felt it was an inaccurate reading of his post. And his subsequent response clarified this: the guide leaving the group to help him did not put anyone in danger whatsoever. Have you forgotten that these were all certified divers, each with their own buddy? If the guide leaving them to assist a diver in trouble was putting any of them in danger, then they shouldn't have been on that dive to begin with. Certified divers shouldn't require a guide to be safe.

I could go on, but I hope my point has been made: you jumped to conclusions, you went too far, and that last comment about knitting was just plain nasty. We do NOT need that kind of nastiness in this forum, directed at the few brave divers who are willing to share their stories in here to help the rest of us learn.

I want to end by saying I completely understand your original intentions in your analysis of his dive: you are looking for ways for us to learn from this incident. That is an admirable intention, and is, in fact, the purpose of this forum. My problem is with your delivery. And, even worse, your ugly and unnecessary "knitting" comment. What does behavior like that add to the forum? Come on...do you have to be so rude?

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I agree the knitting comment was out of line, but the implication that all went well on the dive and nothing needed to be changed took me by surprise.

When I was a newly minted aviator I "knew" I was great, but at least I heeded the instructors' warnings that there was a whole lot I had yet to learn. And over time I learned they were right.

Diving was the same way, 20 dives post OW I thought I was good, 200 dives post OW I started to realize I had a lot yet to learn. 2000 dives post OW cert, and even post full cave and other advanced tehcnical certs, I have confidence in my abilities but also a healthy understanding of my limitations and the sure and certain knowledge that I will always be learning and never know it all.

So...the response stuck me as a bit alarming and the knitting comment came out. My apologies.

As for your thoughts about my thoughts:

1. You seem to feel that the fact that there was a leak at all was an indication of failure on the OP's part...he didn't do a proper pre-dive check, or whatever. That is an erroneous assumption. His subsequent post indicates that it's entirely possible this cropped up later into the dive, and there was no way he could have known about it in advance.

I'm a reg tech. Something was wrong with the reg, it leaked. It was probably (well, obviously) aggravated by banging it during the dive. I've posted previously on a series of pre-dove checks that will give you nearly the same diagnositc quality as a bench test by a reg tech. I am pretty confident the fault could have been detected.

2. You criticized the location of the octopus. His subsequent post indicates that it's in an acceptable location, and the circumstances of the dive (location of others etc.) meant that nobody could have seen the bubbles from the leak.

"Acceptable" is a relative term. It is probably acceptable to rely on the air bag when the brakes fail, but it is cheaper, safer and has less impact on other drivers if you just use the parking brake. After about 2000 dives I am a pretty ardent supporter of a long hose primary and bungeed back up. Not because of any agency orientation, but because I have donated gas on three real world occasions and it simply works a LOT better. And in this case, even a slight leak, let alone one that appears to have dumped 40 bar, would have been easily detectable.

3. You criticized his decision to ascend, rather than swim to his buddy. His subsequent post indicates that there were other circumstances that made ascending appear to be the best choice. You weren't there -- it's entirely possible that it WAS the best choice. Obviously, in an overhead environment that wouldn't have been an option...but this was OW, and it WAS an option, and one that evidently appeared to him to be the best one. In this case, I do believe you are practicing classic "Monday morning quarterbacking" inasmuch as you are making an assumption without all the facts...or with a possibly faulty interpretation of the facts presented. The OP, who WAS there, has every right to disagree with you...without being basically told by you that he should quit diving and start knitting.

If a diver is losing gas at that rate ("surrounded in bubbles") then swimming down current to a buddy (who was reported to be aware of the issue and trying to swim upstream to the diver) makes a lot more sense than ascending from 75 ft. If a diver is swimming with the current and the bubbles are coming from an octo near the groin, I am having trouble visualizing why they are not floating up and away from the divers vision. On the other hand when you ascend with a large gas loss, you will in fact be ascending in the bubbles and will be surrounded by them.

4. You castigated him for supposedly putting other divers at risk by "obligating" the guide to follow him to help. Even before I read the OP's response, I disagreed with you on that...I felt it was an inaccurate reading of his post. And his subsequent response clarified this: the guide leaving the group to help him did not put anyone in danger whatsoever. Have you forgotten that these were all certified divers, each with their own buddy? If the guide leaving them to assist a diver in trouble was putting any of them in danger, then they shouldn't have been on that dive to begin with. Certified divers shouldn't require a guide to be safe.

Anyway you slice it, the "guide" left the other divers and had to focus on a single diver as well as ascend to assist that diver. I'm betting the guide's pulse went up a bit, so I feel for him. And again, in general, there are very very few situations that cannot be handled better if you take a few seconds to assess the problem and consider your resources. My comments are intended to convey that while the OP did ok for an OW diver, there are better ways to work the problem.

----

I am currently posting on a cave diving forum about a dive we had that, while no harm came to anyone, in my opinion had the potential to not go well. The post was promted by another diver who went well off the plan and the discussion was started to determine when and what other cave divers would do in that situation with regard to looking for the diver who went below the MOD of the gas.

However, I have also found fault with myself in terms of how I failed to assert myself pre-dive. This had a negative impact on effectively ensuring all agreed on the details of the dive plan including leadership and team assignments. Despite my hesitations and reservations about how it was shaping up before the dive, none of it seemed like a bad idea at the time. Given that the dive ended normally with only a couple minutes of uncertainty and no one injured, I could have still just said it was a success and not thought twice about it. But the fact is that even though I did not personally take the action that caused the stress, my inactions and failure to act on things that concerned me pre-dive potentially played a role in creating a situation where the other diver made a bad decision.

If I see a problem, I need to own the problem and do what ever I can do to prevent it in the future. That's just simple leadership. I am perhaps being unfair by expecting others to do the same, but it is an approach that leads to safer diving.

 

[Leejnd]

I actually don't have time to read this entire post (I have to go cook dinner), but I wanted to just make a couple quick comments...and then I promise to come back and read the whole thing.

The first thing I want to say is that I didn't disagree with most of your original assessment of his dive. What I had a problem with was the way you said some (not all) of it. I felt it was unnecessarily attacking, putting the diver on the defensive. There were ways you could have stated most of your points that wouldn't have come across that way, and wouldn't have cast such a harsh light on the OP, and his actions/decisions.

And then, when the diver (predictably) came back and defended himself, and in some areas even provided additional information that negated a few of your points, you completely disregarded everything he had to say. You just immediately assumed that he felt that he hadn't done anything wrong. Not ONCE did the OP state that *nothing* went wrong with the dive, and that he wouldn't have changed anything. He never said that. Those words were essentially put in his mouth by you and others...you assumed that's what he was saying.

I didn't read his reply that way at all. I read it as him coming back to provide some additional clarifications, because some of your points were simply wrong, based on faulty reading of his story, and put him in an unnecessarily bad light.

What I then saw was YOU getting all huffy because he disagreed with you. I see this all the time on message boards - people don't LIKE to be disagreed with. So they start tossing out snarky comments, like your "knitting" one. It's just a typical knee-jerk reaction to somebody disagreeing with them, without even considering whether...ahem...they might have been wrong to begin with.

Look, if the divers who post their stories in here can't come back and be listened to when they provide additional information and, yes, even defenses against some of the attacks, then I'm telling you, NOBODY is going to post in here. I certainly will think twice before I ever subject myself to this kind of treatment again.

Here are a few phrases that would REALLY help in this forum, in these types of discussions:

1. Thanks for the clarification.
2. I see now that I was wrong.
3. Mea culpa.
4. I'm sorry.

The next time you find yourself feeling irked that somebody disagrees with you, try reading their post again as if they are disagreeing with somebody else entirely. You might be surprised to find some validity in what they are saying. Being disagreed with is not the end of the world...and it never warrants such snarky comments as your "try knitting instead of diving" one.

I do appreciate (and respect) that you apologized for that.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I should probbaly add that I have a soft spot for knitting and when I am hauling 100 plus pounds of doubles in or out of some sink in N FL, I discuss taking up knitting, because it would be a whole lot lighter. So it was not meant to be as harsh as it sounded, but it is a bit of an inside joke so it would be easily misunderstood.

 

[Leejnd]

I should probbaly add that I have a soft spot for knitting and when I am hauling 100 plus pounds of doubles in or out of some sink in N FL, I discuss taking up knitting, because it would be a whole lot lighter. So it was not meant to be as harsh as it sounded, but it is a bit of an inside joke so it would be easily misunderstood.

LOL! That's actually pretty funny. I don't know too many dudes who would admit to having a soft spot for knitting! I'm a quilter myself. So for that right there, I forgive you for your snarky post. Of course I can't speak for the OP....

 

[SkimFisher]

holy popcorn batman...

 

[QatarDiver]

Question; Can you fold the air hose to the octopus over on itself to form a tight kink and stop the flow of air to the octopus? I've never tried it with an LP scuba hose, but it works well enough with other air/water hoses.

 

[Hintermann]

Is there ANYTHING you would change or do differently???

Yes, I think so. I believe that we did all the right pre-dive checks and so I assume that your question meant anything that I try to do after the freeflow. With hindsight, I would have tried a little harder to reach Werner myself; as DA said, being upcurrent from him, it should have been easier for me. But on the flipside the problem was that my vision was being obsured by bubbles to some extent and I was not totally certain that I would move in the right direction. Also, it is not easy to think of all options when one knows when onw is losing air fast.

 

[openmindOW]

This Board is about encouraging divers to post. New and inexperienced divers will have a disnincentive to post here if you guys continually attack posters with posts along the lines of, "You're an idiot."

There are ways to say things to people that are tactful. It might be called constructive criticism or it might be called tact. Remmeber that you have newbies and inexperienced divers here. Remmebr, that you we were all newbies once.

If you feel like bashing people, go to the tech forum.

Rick, as a Moderator, you have a duty to know better. Maybe it's time for you to take a break as a Mod.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Question; Can you fold the air hose to the octopus over on itself to form a tight kink and stop the flow of air to the octopus? I've never tried it with an LP scuba hose, but it works well enough with other air/water hoses.

Yes, you can... if the problem is in the second stage that'll stop the gas loss and help. More commonly, second stage leaks are due to a high pressure seat problem in the first stage, and crimping the hose will just move the freeflow to the other second stage, so don't let that surprise you if it happens.
*If you do you should replace that hose at the earliest opportunity for crimping isn't something it was designed to do.
I have not tried crimping a Miflex hose so I don't know how easily you can do one of those - part of their selling spiel is that you can tie it in a knot and air will still flow. And I'm not going to try crimping one unless it already needs replacement as they're expensive.
On a related issue, if your tank is rigged so you can't reach the valve and manipulate it, it is mis-rigged.
Rick