O2 cleaning question

[Rich Keller]

fire_diver, The reg techs time is worth the same regardless of the type of reg he or she is working on. I understand you why you are done answering my questions. You do NOT have an answer for what qualifies as "lot more". I expect the other so called "experts" will take the same stand as you if they too do not have an answer.

Other than the usual replacement parts, parts cleaning and silicone all of which are also done with a normal overhaul what is involved in the "LOT more" that justifies being charged more?

 

[PfcAJ]

You're so hung up on this silicone thing. A proper o2 compatible lubricant is NOT silicone based.

 

[Rich Keller]

scadreau, I never asked the NEDU about this. I made one off hand comment about replacement parts and a half dozen guys jumped all over it. I did ask the NEDU about nitrox when it first came out and was told the increased risks involved in using nitrox at depth far out weighed any benifets. They told me that NOAA came up with this for use in shallow water during decompression stops. The amounts of lube and cleaning products do not seem like enough to justify the price alone. What is involved in the verification process?

 

[JahJahwarrior]

There isn't a lot more. Proper regulator work takes time a nd specialized tools to do correctly. This includes expensive lubricants designed for oxygen use. Shops charge more because people will pay more, and if you really want to understand pricing theory I suggest you get a marketing degree. However, given your inability to understand qualified experts and their reasoning on the proper and safest lubricants for oxygen use, I doubt you'd listen to a marketing Ph.D., and the tuition would be a waste. If you aren't going to listen, don't ask questions.

Heck, it would take less time to o2 clean things if I didn't have to spend so much time removing silicone grease!

The amounts of lube and cleaning products do not seem like enough to justify the price alone. What is involved in the verification process?

Please see my quoted post above, with emphasis added.


I looked at this and said the same thing you did: shops charge too much. Then, I sat down and said "this could be a good business opportunity. I could charge less, and take all their business!" so I sat down and looked at what it would take to do this.

I'd have to attend regulator repair clinics for every manufacturer. I'd have to get insurance. File business and tax paperwork. Buy equipment. Keep up to date by attending repair clinics as new regulators came out. Plus, pay my labor charge. It takes time to rebuild a regulator.

If the regulator or valve is not for oxygen use, it can get a very quick or possibly even no cleaning. Does it look good? Well then, it's probably fine for air. Throw in some dirt cheap nitrile orings and some dirt cheap silicone grease, and reassemble. I can rebuild a valve in what, 2 minutes, maybe less, if it's for air.

If it's for oxygen use, it takes quite a bit longer. Dissassemble, and keep all parts organized. Leave them in the ultrasonic cleaner ($600 or more) in the expensive fluid to remove all corrosion and hydrocarbons, along with all that silicone grease other repair techs put on the reg...some regs look clean after a short cycle, but I've cleaned some that required more than 30 minutes in there, with a soft toothbrush to help remove larger grease buildup. Of course, this dirties my expensive cleaning fluid, leading to changes, every rebuild might cost me $3 in cleaning fluid alone.

Then, I've got to rinse and dry, all while not getting the parts dirty, which means ultra clean hands and minimal handling, perhaps while wearing gloves. Replace all orings with viton, which arent nearly as cheap as nitrile. If you buy them from diving supply stores, then the price is just outrageious. If you buy in bulk or from non diving stores, you can save some money, but how many shops do that? Then, rebuild with the proper lube, which costs $30 per 2 oz. So far, it's taken me an hour for the first stage alone, to go from assembled to rebuilt properly clean. Perhaps $10 of materials, or more, and my time, and variable overhead such as electricity and lighting, or waste. Now, I have to correctly set the IP and cycle the reg. A reg cycling thingymajig is $285 alone. IP guages and magnehelics and things, to properly outfit a dive repair shop with the proper tools for every regulator, could easily cost five grand. Gotta make that back somehow!

Some shops check to make sure hydrocarbons are removed with a blacklight. I'm not sure that's super effective, so I just clean them right the first time (ok if you have one, they can be useful, but I don't...)

I'm working on completing my own reg repair capabilities. I've spent well over $300, and I've done it the cheapest ways possible.

I like to clean all of my own equipment to oxygen clean standards, and I do it right, and do it well. If you wanted me to service your regulators, even though I'm not properly certified to work on them (I am in the process of finishing a HOG regulator repair course, will be certified to repair those soon. I've rebuilt most of my regulators and they have worked fine for me.), I would quote you a price very similar to a dive shop, because my time is valuable, and I have quite a bit of overhead to recoup. (for example, to finish the HOG course, I need to own one more HOG first stage, a balanced piston, which will cost me $175 to buy)

If there really was a huge market for cheaper regulator repair, why don't you create a business plan to take advantage of the profits you could reap by offering lower priced regulator repair. Then, take the plan to a venture capitalist. See what they say about your plan. My guess is, you'll find that shops are not making an arm and a leg on proper service, and that you cannot steal all the market share by sweeping in with lower prices, because you will have to charge a similar price in order to break even. I could be wrong. I wouldn't ever take a regulator to your business knowing that you would use silicone for my oxygen regulators.


Keep in mind that pricing is not only based on cost. There are many theories behind pricing. Microsoft sold the XBox at a loss of over $100 per unit at first to gain market share. Many argue that dive shops sell air fills at a loss to get customers in. Pricing can also be based on what the market will bear. This can be changed by the introduction of competitors: perfect markets, economically speaking, are those in which prices are perfectly equal to marginal cost and there are no profits to be made. Monopolies, oligopolies, and market imperfections all enable shops to charge a price above marginal cost.

Finally, not every shop charges different prices, some have a flat fee for regulator service, and reassemble everything in an oxygen clean manner, making your premise, that oxygen cleaning costs more than regular overhauling, invalid.

Even more finally, you really, really, really, really need to realize that Christolube and Tribolube are not silicone. Your inability to grasp that concept and fact, and inability to admit you were wrong on something, makes it very difficult for people to have a productive debate with you. It makes you seem like a troll.

 

[fire_diver]

I looked at this and ... said the same thing you did: shops charge too much. Then, I sat down and said "this could be a good business opportunity. I could charge less, and take all their business!" so I sat down and looked at what it would take to do this.

I'd have to attend regulator repair clinics for every manufacturer. I'd have to get insurance. File business and tax paperwork. Buy equipment. Keep up to date by attending repair clinics as new regulators came out. Plus, pay my labor charge. It takes time to rebuild a regulator.

If the regulator or valve is not for oxygen use, it can get a very quick or possibly even no cleaning. Does it look good? Well then, it's probably fine for air. Throw in some dirt cheap nitrile orings and some dirt cheap silicone grease, and reassemble. I can rebuild a valve in what, 2 minutes, maybe less, if it's for air.

If it's for oxygen use, it takes quite a bit longer. Dissassemble, and keep all parts organized. Leave them in the ultrasonic cleaner ($600 or more) in the expensive fluid to remove all corrosion and hydrocarbons, along with all that silicone grease other repair techs put on the reg...some regs look clean after a short cycle, but I've cleaned some that required more than 30 minutes in there, with a soft toothbrush to help remove larger grease buildup. Of course, this dirties my expensive cleaning fluid, leading to changes, every rebuild might cost me $3 in cleaning fluid alone.

Then, I've got to rinse and dry, all while not getting the parts dirty, which means ultra clean hands and minimal handling, perhaps while wearing gloves. Replace all orings with viton, which arent nearly as cheap as nitrile. If you buy them from diving supply stores, then the price is just outrageious. If you buy in bulk or from non diving stores, you can save some money, but how many shops do that? Then, rebuild with the proper lube, which costs $30 per 2 oz. So far, it's taken me an hour for the first stage alone, to go from assembled to rebuilt properly clean. Perhaps $10 of materials, or more, and my time, and variable overhead such as electricity and lighting, or waste. Now, I have to correctly set the IP and cycle the reg. A reg cycling thingymajig is $285 alone. IP guages and magnehelics and things, to properly outfit a dive repair shop with the proper tools for every regulator, could easily cost five grand. Gotta make that back somehow!

Some shops check to make sure hydrocarbons are removed with a blacklight. I'm not sure that's super effective, so I just clean them right the first time (ok if you have one, they can be useful, but I don't...)

I'm working on completing my own reg repair capabilities. I've spent well over $300, and I've done it the cheapest ways possible.

I like to clean all of my own equipment to oxygen clean standards, and I do it right, and do it well. If you wanted me to service your regulators, even though I'm not properly certified to work on them (I am in the process of finishing a HOG regulator repair course, will be certified to repair those soon. I've rebuilt most of my regulators and they have worked fine for me.), I would quote you a price very similar to a dive shop, because my time is valuable, and I have quite a bit of overhead to recoup. (for example, to finish the HOG course, I need to own one more HOG first stage, a balanced piston, which will cost me $175 to buy)

If there really was a huge market for cheaper regulator repair, why don't you create a business plan to take advantage of the profits you could reap by offering lower priced regulator repair. Then, take the plan to a venture capitalist. See what they say about your plan. My guess is, you'll find that shops are not making an arm and a leg on proper service, and that you cannot steal all the market share by sweeping in with lower prices, because you will have to charge a similar price in order to break even. I could be wrong. I wouldn't ever take a regulator to your business knowing that you would use silicone for my oxygen regulators.


Keep in mind that pricing is not only based on cost. There are many theories behind pricing. Microsoft sold the XBox at a loss of over $100 per unit at first to gain market share. Many argue that dive shops sell air fills at a loss to get customers in. Pricing can also be based on what the market will bear. This can be changed by the introduction of competitors: perfect markets, economically speaking, are those in which prices are perfectly equal to marginal cost and there are no profits to be made. Monopolies, oligopolies, and market imperfections all enable shops to charge a price above marginal cost.

Finally, not every shop charges different prices, some have a flat fee for regulator service, and reassemble everything in an oxygen clean manner, making your premise, that oxygen cleaning costs more than regular overhauling, invalid.

Even more finally, you really, really, really, really need to realize that Christolube and Tribolube are not silicone. Your inability to grasp that concept and fact, and inability to admit you were wrong on something, makes it very difficult for people to have a productive debate with you. It makes you seem like a troll.

Wow, JahJah, that was an incredible explanation. Sir, I salute you!

 

[giles45shop]

scadreau, I never asked the NEDU about this. I made one off hand comment about replacement parts and a half dozen guys jumped all over it. I did ask the NEDU about nitrox when it first came out and was told the increased risks involved in using nitrox at depth far out weighed any benifets. They told me that NOAA came up with this for use in shallow water during decompression stops. The amounts of lube and cleaning products do not seem like enough to justify the price alone. What is involved in the verification process?

I think JaJa has now given you a pretty detailed explanation of what's involved in cleaning regs for oxygen service. In short summary, there's more cleaning which does take extra time to do it right and both the viton parts and fluorinated greases are several times the cost of typical buna o rings and silicone greases.

All of that said, nowhere in any of these 9 pages of posts does anyone quote costs for oxygen cleaning, but it's really not that much more expensive in the grand sceme of things. I think it costs about $10 extra at my LDS for cleaning a tank for O2 service and maybe $20+ more for my O2 deco regulator cleaning. You might have gotten confused by the early posts where Australian divers are quoting $30+ fills of nitrox, which is crazy!

John

 

[JahJahwarrior]

I was talking about this with a friend and I realized, my time is pretty valuable. I'm not some minimum wage employee, unless I'm forced to be. While I'm finishing up my Masters in Business Administration, I don't know what wage to expect in May when I hopefully gain employment, but I certainly hope it greatly exceeds minimum wage.

This is a job that could be done by someone with no education at all besides the basic training it takes to service regulators, and perhaps then you could charge a low labor fee. However, for my time alone, to service your regulator, I'm likely to ask for $30-$50. That is in addition to the overhead I have to pay off, the fixed costs such as building rent (and I'm living cheap in a $500/month apartment), and the variable costs for materials (rebuild kits, orings, etc) Before I retire, I certainly hope that I can make more money in two hours working than it costs to service my regulators, at which point it would be more economical to pay some shop to do the work for me. I service my regulators now because I enjoy the work and understanding how my equipment works, not necessarily because it's cheaper than paying for service.

 

[Rich Keller]

JahJahwarrior, Everything you described are steps I take to service an air only regulator or valve. It will take longer if the item was not properly maintained prior. The amounts of lube, and cleaner used are too small to effect the price. The price of the parts are also not much greater. Last the vague references in the last 9 pages to there being "a lot more" involved while seeming to imply other processes do not exist. You said your self you saw dive shops charging too much for this. So you got into the business to over charge people a little less while still ripping them off? Where do you go from here? Wall St? That place is full of people who think just like you and look at what that has done to the economy. People like you will someday cause this industry to come under government regulation. I my personal opinion this would be a VERY bad thing for all involved.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

Rich, I'm getting tired of explaining this to you.

JahJahwarrior, Everything you described are steps I take to service an air only regulator or valve. It will take longer if the item was not properly maintained prior. The amounts of lube, and cleaner used are too small to effect the price. The price of the parts are also not much greater.

I'm glad you properly service your valves. If you do your own service, then you should understand why it costs what it does.Do you not see my explanation of the costs involved? Or do you not understand that businesses have to atleast break even in the long run to stay in business? Do you have a problem with the capitalistic model? Do you feel that the government should provide us all with regulator servicing for free?

Regulator servicing involves LARGE costs for training, equipment, and business overhead.


I agree with you, proper regulator servicing is o2 clean servicing. And I do not charge, or would not charge, a different price. It would be one flat fee, and it would be a pretty large fee, as I have already explained, because of the high costs involved.

You are flat wrong about the higher costs of viton, christolube, and hydrosonic cleaner, affecting the price. If I pay more, then as my customer, you'd pay more. Why don't you understand that? Do you think I'm in business as a charity? Guess what! I'm not! I don't care that it was only $5 more in costs, those ARE getting passed on to you. (technically, I can show you that those costs shift my supply curve, which raises the price by only some of the $5 increase, due to the sloping nature of your demand curve, leading to a price that is not $5 higher, but slightly less, and quantity demanded that is lower than before, but I'm not going to waste my time on economic models with you)

Viton orings do cost more. i just bought a small kit of some common viton orings. 166 orings, to be exact. Cost me $30, and that was from a generic oring supplier, not a scuba oring supplier. A similar kit from Trident was around $80, if I recall correctly. I just paid $30 for two ounces of tribolube. I can get that amount of silicone for what, $5? And blue gold is what, $30 per quart? And I have to change that out periodically to ensure the cleanest regulators, because I'm not turning out no unclean or half *** jobs if I'm rebuilding regs. If you don't believe that the extra $80 I just spent on materials to ensure o2 cleanness are getting passed on, then you sir, would not do well in a business.

You said your self you saw dive shops charging too much for this. So you got into the business to over charge people a little less while still ripping them off? Where do you go from here? Wall St? That place is full of people who think just like you and look at what that has done to the economy. People like you will someday cause this industry to come under government regulation. I my personal opinion this would be a VERY bad thing for all involved.

I have not gotten into the business. I am rebuilding my own gear now, but do not do it for a living because I looked into it and saw that I could not in fact beat the price of dive shops. If anything, I would have to charge more. My time with a Masters degree is worth more than a lot of dive shop owners time, unfortunately. How you read my post and assume that I have intentions to rip people off is incredible.

I'm not sitting here selling off securities based on people who bought o2 clean regulators on credit but who can't meet minimum payments.

Your personal insults that have nothing to do with this thread make it ever clearer that you are arguing only for the sake of arguing.

As I said before, if you think you can charge less than a dive shop, then either
1) Rebuild your own regs, and stop complaining
2) Open up your own dive shop, and rake in the dough

If you choose number 2, please feel free to post your financial estimates here so we can point out the flaws in them, to keep you from losing your shirt. I'm not saying that every dive shop charges a fair price, only that I believe you are underestimating the cost of business.

If I were you, i would be far more concerned about the one or two hundred percent markup on other items. The scuba industry does their pricing a weird way...they try to mark up the stuff we don't buy on a weekly basis by a few hundred percent to help cover the losses they incur from selling the stuff we do buy on a weekly basis at a loss, all while complaining about how the internet is cutting into their margins and makign the world a terrible place.

 

[Rich Keller]

JahJahwarrior, While I have said that this was nothing but a rip off and that people were distorting what I said and not telling the whole truth and implying there was more to O2 cleaning then would be done in a normal overhaul I never called anyone a thief or a lier or any other name. The only ones calling people names here so far have been you and fire_diver.