Not necessarily a scuba agency but they do provide a cert. PSI-PCI ?

[Wookie]

I had a look at the page that Robert posted. Seems legit that someone would offer a 1 day class for folks to learn about cylinders and cylinder safety. Problem is, the folks who need this the most are too cheap to take the class, so we will have dive shops out there misquoting federal regulations as pertains to nitrox bands, O2 cleaning, annual VIP, etc. etc.

---------- Post added October 22nd, 2014 at 05:42 PM ----------

I think if you use it for profit ...

Profit doesn't matter. If you print it and give it away, you're violating copyright. Ask yourself "Does it hurt the original author?" If it does, you're violating copyright.

 

[robertarak]

The last VIP course I taught was only 4 people. Of those one was knowledgeable and needed the cert to operate a hydro facility, and one has worked in several dive shops, had done "100's" of visual inspections, and was "trained by the shop owner".

Both left realizing how much they didn't know, and were very happy they had taken the class. The more information and properly trained people we put out there, the better the industry will be.

 

[knotical]

... Profit doesn't matter. If you print it and give it away, you're violating copyright. Ask yourself "Does it hurt the original author?" If it does, you're violating copyright.

I think I understand now. Apparently the un-named training agency could show PSI-PCI copyrighted material on an overhead projector, and use it to train students (who paid to take the course), but as long as the students didn't walk out with a copy it would be OK? I understand the legal principal of: - if something isn't strictly prohibited, it's legal; but this still seems at least slimey (to me).

 

[robertarak]

I think you are assuming facts not in evidence here. To me with the absence of any fact a company who used to enjoy a very large market share of a training program is now upset that there is another company offering similar training. I have sat through enough of the PSI classes to know that as much as I have enjoyed them and found value in them, much of the time was taken talking about how great PSI is and how they wrote everything ever written the subject of tank inspections.

 

[RJP]

Profit doesn't matter. If you print it and give it away, you're violating copyright. Ask yourself "Does it hurt the original author?" If it does, you're violating copyright.

You don't even need to ask "does it hurt the original author" in order to be violative. A copyright owner retains exclusive rights to reproduce, distribute, display, perform (music/video/plays/etc) and create derivative work. (There are certain limitations such as "fair use" etc) But even in a case where there is "no harm" - suppose I xeroxed a PSI manual and put that copy in my Aunt Tilley's coffin and buried her with it - there is still infringement. The degree of harm comes in to play when determining potential penalties - actual damages. Even though I would be found to have violated PSIs copyright, they probably wouldn't collect much from me.

---------- Post added October 22nd, 2014 at 06:11 PM ----------

I think I understand now. Apparently the un-named training agency could show PSI-PCI copyrighted material on an overhead projector, and use it to train students (who paid to take the course), but as long as the students didn't walk out with a copy it would be OK?

I wanted to just write "no" but the ScubaBoard software won't let me post a reply with less than five characters. Oh well...

 

[knotical]

As I read elsewhere about copyright law, a couple of things:
- making a profit from other folks' copyrighted material does seem to be proscribed in many circumstances.
- it's still unclear to me whether it would be in this situation but I'm leaning toward it not being OK.

Sure glad I never studied law.

 

[RJP]

As I read elsewhere about copyright law, a couple of things:
- making a profit from other folks' copyrighted material does seem to be proscribed in many circumstances.
- it's still unclear to me whether it would be in this situation but I'm leaning toward it not being OK.

Sure glad I never studied law.

It depends on how they are using it, really.

If they purchased sufficient copies of the materials from PSI, provided those materials - unaltered - to the students and used them to teach the class... clearly no problem.

If they purchased one copy of the materials and handed out photocopies to the students... clearly a problem.

If they incorporated any of PSI copyrighted materials (charts, graphs, sentences, whatever... even just one) into their own materials, that's a problem as they have created a "derivative work"

If they made an overhead slide (as you suggested above) and use that to teach the class... even that's potentially a problem.
- If an actual "slide" was made, that's a copy of the work
- If the PSI materials are audio/visual, than showing them to the class could constitute a "public performance"

For anyone interested... http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html

 

[redacted]

Deleted

Forgive me, lord, for not reading before posting.

 

[boulderjohn]

NAUI does not have a cylinder inspection course and never did to the best of my knowledge. They do however strongly support PSI

It would be very unlikely that NAUI would ever compete with PSI. Bill High was one of NAUI's early leaders. When NAUI nearly went bankrupt in their early years, they survived on a loan from him.

I have sat through enough of the PSI classes to know that as much as I have enjoyed them and found value in them, much of the time was taken talking about how great PSI is and how they wrote everything ever written the subject of tank inspections.

Come on. You exaggerate. No more than 40% of the class is devoted to those topics.

---------- Post added October 22nd, 2014 at 05:16 PM ----------

I was a part of the UTD family shortly after it was formed, and I believe they made their own cylinder inspection course back then. I do know that they had official UTD cylinder inspection stickers, round ones designed to go on the bottom of the tanks in their version of DIR conformity. I once had them on all my tanks. My instructor said that when they started the course, they were indeed contacted by PSI with accusations of copyright infringement. I don't know what happened to that.

 

[knotical]

Deleted

Forgive me, lord, for not reading before posting.

Been there, bought the tee-shirt.

---------- Post added October 22nd, 2014 at 01:33 PM ----------

... much of the time was taken talking about how great PSI is and how they wrote everything ever written the subject of tank inspections.

My experience was so different. Both in the original class and a couple of updates at DEMA. Perhaps another example of "it's the instructor ... "