Non professional divers taking very young children diving (even in a pool)

[tstormdiver]

HOWEVER, I think it's pretty unfair to compare this guy to the Eagle's Nest fiasco. You're comparing a swimming pool to the Everest of cave diving? That's comparing a walk in the park to a hike up Everest. Walking in the park is fine, hiking Everest with a 5yr old is not.

You misunderstand what I was getting at. Not the comparison of the size/ type of the dives. But that the father taught his son to dive, then started cave diving untrained, then decided he had the knowledge to teach his son to cave dive. That is the point I was making. Another case of "you don't know what you don't know". Did the father take his son into that cave with the intention of killing both himself & his son? Likely not, but he obviously had no clue what he was doing either. Look at what has come down over the years- research, accidents & fatalities to establish those "oh so boring" standards as to what is generally considered safe & what is not.

 

[nimoh]

Nobody has died from scuba in their family pool. So scuba in family pool vs people dieing swimming is a valid comparison. If you can figure out that statistic I can help you. It's zero. So that's safer than swimming.

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How were you able to get from "I can't find a single documented case..." to "It's zero"?

 

[cerich]

https://vimeo.com/116095394

I shared this on my facebook wall today. It was awesome and filmed in Canada.

My daughter at 4 would NOT have tolerated that nor enjoyed it. Flying yes, the aerobatics...not so much.

Some parents would feel the father put the child at an unacceptable degree of risk. Others not.

This flight by the way would have been illegal in the United States. IN the US you must use parachutes when doing aerobatics, not so in Canada. The US also does not teach spins, in Canada they are part of the PP airwork...and fun and I am absolutely sure has saved many lives. In fact I often read accident reports of US pilots who could not recover from spins and died, and only VERY rarely students in Canada that dies doing spin training. However the perceived (real?) legal liability of a STUDENT doing a lawn dart in the US while doing spin training makes society here much more accepting that it's OK for a pilot to die from lack of complete training that covers how to recover from a spin than it is to get sued. IMHO that is full on stupid and self centered and short sighted to the point of mental illness.

 

[boulderjohn]

Nobody has died from scuba in their family pool.

Actually, if you read through the old DAN fatality reports, you will find that people have indeed died from scuba in the family pool.

When I did my instructor training, we were required to watch a video that re-enacted a real fatality in a pool during a training session. That fatality occurred in a class conducted by an instructor with a divemaster assisting.

 

[Wookie]

You seem to be getting your feeling hurt. May I remind you:

Kind of a gray area, since he was a certified diver, but with knowing what he wanted to do,... it was decided that we could not risk the liability. Now, to the point,.... What are people's thoughts on situations like this? Why do these people think they have enough knowledge/ skills to teach others to dive, when they likely barely can dive themselves-

You asked for our thoughts, and we are giving them to you. When I don't want to know what folks think, I don't ask, and I sure don't defend myself when I do.

Now to your other point:

I refer back to the Eagle's Nest fatalities that happened 2 yrs ago (an OW father & an uncertified son). Why are these people so willing to risk the safety of their loved ones?

I believe the son was in brand new gear. He had received it for Christmas. As we all know, we all can be sued for anything at any time. Do you believe that the shop that sold the dad the gear to give to his son was at fault? Do you think the father should have had to show a c-card to buy gear, and if he did (remember, he was certified) is wherever he bought the gear still at fault?

Yes, I know, it's slightly different in that the gramps told you what he was doing. Had he not, and you rented him a tank and sold him a reg, and the 5 year old died, would you have felt responsible? Would you be able to sleep at night?

 

[redacted]

Perhaps it is just that nobody likes the Scuba Police.

 

[victorzamora]

You misunderstand what I was getting at. Not the comparison of the size/ type of the dives. But that the father taught his son to dive, then started cave diving untrained, then decided he had the knowledge to teach his son to cave dive. That is the point I was making. Another case of "you don't know what you don't know". Did the father take his son into that cave with the intention of killing both himself & his son? Likely not, but he obviously had no clue what he was doing either. Look at what has come down over the years- research, accidents & fatalities to establish those "oh so boring" standards as to what is generally considered safe & what is not.

That is fair. But I did say that if someone was competent then it was safe. Potentially a "Dunning-Kruger" case can be made for both of them (definitely the "Nest" incident)....but I think they're very different ball games. My point is that I feel "gramps taking the kids in a pool" is a totally different conversation than "some guy with zero training took another guy with zero training and broke literally every rule imaginable." If gramps was going, "Yeah, get to the deep end....then hold the BIGGEST breath ever and kick off to the surface!!!" then it'd be different. This guy, from your version of the story, doesn't seem to be the most capable or competent diver out there. Regardless of his competence, I can't blame you for making the decision to not rent him a tank.....I wouldn't rent someone a tank if I knew they were doing that, even if they WERE good divers. However, don't villainize the entire concept. It can be done very safely and in a very fun way.

 

[boulderjohn]

Now to your other point: I believe the son was in brand new gear. He had received it for Christmas. As we all know, we all can be sued for anything at any time. Do you believe that the shop that sold the dad the gear to give to his son was at fault? Do you think the father should have had to show a c-card to buy gear, and if he did (remember, he was certified) is wherever he bought the gear still at fault?

Lots of uncertified people go into dive shops all the time to purchase equipment to use as gifts for birthdays, Christmas, etc. The only time C cards are usually required is for tank fills, and that is a matter of convention, not law. I can't imagine there would be any more liability attached than would be attached to a car dealer that sold a car to someone who later let an unlicensed driver use it.

 

[victorzamora]

Actually, if you read through the old DAN fatality reports, you will find that people have indeed died from scuba in the family pool.

When I did my instructor training, we were required to watch a video that re-enacted a real fatality in a pool during a training session. That fatality occurred in a class conducted by an instructor with a divemaster assisting.

What was the cause of death? Lung overexpansion? Also, what were the ratios?

 

[Seya]

Actually, if you read through the old DAN fatality reports, you will find that people have indeed died from scuba in the family pool.

When I did my instructor training, we were required to watch a video that re-enacted a real fatality in a pool during a training session. That fatality occurred in a class conducted by an instructor with a divemaster assisting.

I have been googling all morning and couldn't find a single case. Thanks ill look it up

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