Nomad JT or Bogaerts Razor 2 system??

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin, I'm not suggesting that at all. I don't know how you can even imply that from my statement.

If your last statement is true - The answer to being overweighted is never a larger BC. - then why did you build a larger BC for the Razor??

Please look at the quoted section above. Here you clearly suggest that the Bat Wing features higher capacity to compensate for being overweighted.

But sometimes the most minimalist gear configuration will still provide more ballast than can be offset by exposure protection.

Further in the quote above you state that being overweighted is unavoidable, I disagree.

When I dive LP108s in my compressed neoprene dry suit with no additional weight, I am over weighted. How would you suggest I avoid being over weighted other than not diving LP108s? I will admit I rarely dive LP108s, but those are my trimix cylinders. My LP95s get too positive with more than 35% helium in them. I know because I tried it.

There are many other possible cylinder combinations. About once a week I have a prospective customer tell me something along the line of "well I own XX tanks and have to use them, so sell me a bigger wing. Wrong. Being fundamentally overweighted is a safety issue, and makes the impacts of a BC failure far more difficult to deal with. Get the right tanks, not a bigger BC.

My statements are not about the amount of lift in the wing or the weighting of the rig. My statements are about the position of the wing and the high profile of the wing when it is inflated as in the video I posted of Steve. Others claim the Razor2 is the most streamlined sidemount rig on the market. My opinion, based on a video of Steve, is it is not the most streamlined in all configurations. Yes, it may be streamlined in AL80s, or even small steel cylinders, but the need to put air in it to counteract the weight of larger steels takes away this attribute. If the MSR bag provided enough lift then why did you produce the Bat wing? Obviously something wasn't right otherwise the MSR would still be the BC of choice for the Razor.

Now I'm just repeating myself. BC's are correctly used to offset the weight of the divers gas. Components (tanks etc.) should be selected to offset the buoyancy of the suit. If you are way negative with empty tanks you need other bottles, more buoyant suit etc. not a larger BC

Any BC will be less than fully streamlined when filled to capacity, ANY OF THEM. However normal operation for a properly ballasted diver won't have their BC fully inflated.

Tobin

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Apparently I am missing your point.

However 28 lbs is not equal to 14lbs.

Tobin

Yeah, but I didn't bring those numbers to the table - since according to you, its primarily the weight of the gas that determines lift requirements(I included tank bouyancy I know). For 28 lbs, you included tank bouyancy ~1.5 lbs as well as 2.5 lbs of rigging and regulators, which doesn't really help your case...

Even by those numbers, two LP95s are gonna weigh the same as 7 AL80s in the water.

..and I can tell you by experience that HP130s, along with the rest of your kit, are heavy enough to overtake 45 lbs of lift while diving wet at 120'. I've been there with the original Nomad(45 lbs of lift). Its not enough, not for heavy steels, not deep.

Sure, its fine for AL80s.

I'd rather carry (2) LP108s and (2) stages via a Nomad, than (6)AL80s on a Razor, since its far more streamlined. The Razor is not ideal in this case. That doesn't make it a POS, it just makes it a tool for certain jobs, and the wrong tool for others.

 

[cool_hardware52]

..and I can tell you by experience that HP130s, along with the rest of your kit, are heavy enough to overtake 45 lbs of lift while diving wet at 120'. I've been there with the original Nomad(45 lbs of lift). Its not enough, not for heavy steels, not deep.

Seems I recall a wise man saying big steel doubles in a wetsuit was to be avoided.......

Tobin

 

[Dive-aholic]

If you are way negative with empty tanks you need other bottles, more buoyant suit etc. not a larger BC

Any BC will be less than fully streamlined when filled to capacity, ANY OF THEM. However normal operation for a properly ballasted diver won't have their BC fully inflated.

Tobin

The only suit more buoyant than my compressed neoprene dry suit would be a non-compressed dry suit and that's not happening. Smaller cylinders will not work for the dives I'm using my 108s for. And don't recommend a rebreather. I would still need the 108s for bailout at those depths so rebreather would only add more ballast to the configuration. My Faber LP95s are actually heavier than my Worthington LP108s when filled to 2640 (according to the charts). They equal out when cave filled, and I would lose 35cf of gas by going with 95s. I guess I could use LP85s since they're 2 lbs lighter each. But I'd have to add an AL80 to make up for the 65cf less gas. Oh wait, that puts the 4lbs right back on! Still the same amount of ballast and now I'm less streamlined because I'm carrying a 3rd cylinder.

So what's your solution? Not do those dives? Not likely to happen. But, seriously, what's your solution? I'd really like to know.

I make it happen by using the tools at my disposal to get it done. If that means I need to use my wing to get neutral, then that's what it means. By the way, I have one of the original Nomads with only 50lbs of lift and with the way I have it rigged, I'd be surprised if I had 35lbs of usable lift. And the only time I ever have it fully inflated is on the surface before one of those trimix dives.

I'm also pretty sure Steve doesn't have his Bat wing fully inflated in that video to carry those 6 AL80s. But even so, it floats off his back quite a bit. Yes, air will do that, but there are ways to keep it from protruding so much.

Like on CDF, I'm done beating this dead horse.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

There are many other possible cylinder combinations. About once a week I have a prospective customer tell me something along the line of "well I own XX tanks and have to use them, so sell me a bigger wing. Wrong. Being fundamentally overweighted is a safety issue, and makes the impacts of a BC failure far more difficult to deal with. Get the right tanks, not a bigger BC.



Now I'm just repeating myself. BC's are correctly used to offset the weight of the divers gas. Components (tanks etc.) should be selected to offset the buoyancy of the suit. If you are way negative with empty tanks you need other bottles, more buoyant suit etc. not a larger BC

Thats your opinion, you can have a balanced setup without ditching common sized tanks(which are standard are very standard in this part of the world).

Any BC will be less than fully streamlined when filled to capacity, ANY OF THEM. However normal operation for a properly ballasted diver won't have their BC fully inflated.

Tobin

Carrying extra tanks is far less streamlined than a wing thats closer to full capacity.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Seems I recall a wise man saying big steel doubles in a wetsuit was to be avoided.......

Tobin

If the lift is adaquate, and 45 lbs proved not to be, and you have a redundant wing ontop of that. It doesn't matter if your wet or not.

 

[cool_hardware52]

The only suit more buoyant than my compressed neoprene dry suit would be a non-compressed dry suit and that's not happening. Smaller cylinders will not work for the dives I'm using my 108s for. And don't recommend a rebreather. I would still need the 108s for bailout at those depths so rebreather would only add more ballast to the configuration. My Faber LP95s are actually heavier than my Worthington LP108s when filled to 2640 (according to the charts). They equal out when cave filled, and I would lose 35cf of gas by going with 95s. I guess I could use LP85s since they're 2 lbs lighter each. But I'd have to add an AL80 to make up for the 65cf less gas. Oh wait, that puts the 4lbs right back on! Still the same amount of ballast and now I'm less streamlined because I'm carrying a 3rd cylinder.

So what's your solution? Not do those dives? Not likely to happen. But, seriously, what's your solution? I'd really like to know.

I've made no mention of rebreathers, and it's pretty telling when you responses include such red herrings that you aren't seriously interested in a genuine answer.

Tobin

 

[Dive-aholic]

I've made no mention of rebreathers, and it's pretty telling when you responses include such red herrings that you aren't seriously interested in a genuine answer.

Tobin

Actually, I am truly interested in how you would approach this. My mention of a rebreather wasn't based on anything you said, but more of a general statement to those who usually jump in and state one is needed for deep dives. Just trying to beat everyone to the punch there. I would like a genuine answer, if you have one.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I'm also pretty sure Steve doesn't have his Bat wing fully inflated in that video to carry those 6 AL80s. But even so, it floats off his back quite a bit. Yes, air will do that, but there are ways to keep it from protruding so much.

Ah well no not really. It's not floating up. If you had ever actually used a BAT Wing you would know it's in contact with the diver's back in the center, but the edges pull up as it fills. This is one of the specific things that was worked on extensively during the development of the wing / harness interface.
Think of a Mylar balloon restrained at four points around the edges. As it fills it becomes a sphere. It both pushes on the divers low back, and inflates away from the divers back. Bungees around the waist and at the lower edge keep the wing snug at all times. These are of course adjustable.

Once again I'll express my surprise at your continued willingness to pass judgement and spread misinformation on gear you have never used.

Tobin

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Why's it so hard to admit that 45 lbs isn't enough lift for all cases?