No truer words have ever been typed!

[PerroneFord]

Where does passion dictate we must dispense with logic? If I wear my gear a certain way, I do it because I feel that it works well for me. You may wear your gear a different way. We can each be passionate about it, and we may never convince the other which is the better way. So be it. It's the fool that reconfigures his gear all the time because he lacks the conviction to stick with what he feels is the best choice, that worries me.

The decision of who is a tyrant or a terrorist really depends on where you stand and where your passions lie. However, someone having a strong opinion and expressing it, gives you the opportunity to either get behind someone, or move away from them. Waffling, wishy-washy people inspire no confidence and give no reason to trust or mistrust them.

 

[Mo2vation]

Sorry Ken,
I have to disagree with your Point of View. The world has been led too often (and still is) with "passionate" fools who dismiss logic.
If I take your argument to it's extreme, and I think you are encouraging me to do just that, then I would assume that you favor tyrants and terrorists because they are strongly opinionated.
Sorry.. just does not work for me! I'll listen to the soft-spoken, well thought out ideas & discussion over the passionate one every time.
There is lots of room for disagreement and there is no shortage of opinion. I don't choose my music based on how loud it is, but how good it is (in my opinion of course). I would say that "we can agree to disagree", but I think you would hate that

You guys just don't get it. Which is fine, as you're proving my point.

a) why do you need to take my statement to the extreme? Zealots have passion. Tyrants have passion. But so do smart committed people who see through these clowns and develop well crafted opposition.

b) a ninny can't develop "soft-spoken, well thought-out ideas" - it takes time, commitment, energy, focus and purpose (all fueled by passion) to develop your "soft-spoken, well thought-out ideas" - no passion, none of the above.

c) I got no problem agreeing to disagree. I disagree with most of the weakazz arguements people present to me. But if you haven't sold me, I'm not changing my opinion. ALSO: If you're right, and you haven't sold me, I may change my opinion - but you'll never know, as I'll make your point my own and sell it better than you to the next guy. HOWEVER: If you sell me, and I change my opinion, you'll earn my respect and receive credit for my turn around. Its how I roll.

Passion doesn't have to be loud. It just has to be genuine. Passion isn't about right or wrong... that stuff comes later. Separate them and you'll get closer to the truth.

Without passion, why put your feet on the floor in the morning? If you're gonna be a bear, be a grizzly.

---
Ken

 

[Teamcasa]

Ken, you ever play golf(talking about getting a 6 or below hdc. going)???.....rotflmao, may I answer that Q??.........

Those who have never played golf, never will understand that its not a physical activity.

“Golf is the cruelest game, because eventually it will drag you out in front of the whole school, take your lunch money and slap you around.”
Rick Reilly, Sports Illustrated

Dave

 

[Guba]

Passion is great, but it can only go so far.
For example, I'm a state champion debater (and debate coach and judge), and I can attest that an empassioned argument is much more likely to sway a judge than one that is blase' and lifeless. HOWEVER, a passionate speech that is wrong is still just that...WRONG. All the fire and flare does nothing to make it more right.
Therefore, I choose to adhere to a deeper concept---wisdom. In my mind, wisdom is the ability to carefully consider the logic and weight of an argument and adopt a stance, THEN decide how much passion to employ in order for the argument to be heard and accepted. Once the case has been made and defended, wisdom also dictates when to back off and let the matter rest.
In my mind wisdom can often prevent those mindless debates that produce nothing constructive.

A point to ponder..."passion" can drive very heated presentations and opinions. Consider a young man attempting to persuade a young lady to have sex in the back seat of a car. The ensuing arguement can be passionate indeed, and if he can instill his passion in her, well...you get the picture.
Wisdom, on the part of the young lady, will cause her to evaluate his passionate plea and weigh the motivation, potential benefits and risks, likely outcome, and possible consequences. In my mind, wisdom is superior to passion alone every time.

 

[under water]

The decision of who is a tyrant or a terrorist really depends on where you stand and where your passions lie. However, someone having a strong opinion and expressing it, gives you the opportunity to either get behind someone, or move away from them. Waffling, wishy-washy people inspire no confidence and give no reason to trust or mistrust them.

Passion should not be used as a substitute for argument. Passion, to some degree is a cultural phenomenon. I agree that it can augment a good argument, but not trump one.
What would a passionate borg look like!

 

[PerroneFord]

What would a passionate borg look like!

Come dive with me and find out.

 

[PerroneFord]

HOWEVER, a passionate speech that is wrong is still just that...WRONG. All the fire and flare does nothing to make it more right.

What is right and wrong is simply a matter of opinion and limited understanding. During WW2, my father and soldiers like him were instructed that should they find themselves in lifejackets in shark infested waters, they should splash the water to make the sharks go away. This was "right" in 1942. It is not right today. At one time the scholars of the day agreed that the Earth was flat. However that was disproved. So what is right and what is wrong stems from either limited understanding, conjecture, or moral conviction.

 

[F106A]

Well, I've had an epiphany; Mo2vation is totally right. From now on I'll be relying 100% on passion and enthusiasm rather than intelligence and education, I think.

 

[under water]

You guys just don't get it. Which is fine, as you're proving my point.

? That you have not convinced us (me) is proving your point?

a) why do you need to take my statement to the extreme? Zealots have passion. Tyrants have passion. But so do smart committed people who see through these clowns and develop well crafted opposition.

They can have passion, but the point I was making was that passion should be used to augment an argument, not replace one. Perhaps this is where we diverge. I put more emphasis on the argument, not the delivery or mo2vation [sic]

b) a ninny can't develop "soft-spoken, well thought-out ideas" - it takes time, commitment, energy, focus and purpose (all fueled by passion) to develop your "soft-spoken, well thought-out ideas" - no passion, none of the above.

Your definition and my definition of a 'ninny' differ. I do agree that passion can create commitment, energy, focus and purpose. However, a right answer may not require all of those, just knowledge. If you discount knowledge and research because it is presented in a meek fashion then you may not hear what is being said, for similar reasons that some may not hear what is being said if it comes across wrapped in too much passion.

c) I got no problem agreeing to disagree. I disagree with most of the weakazz arguements people present to me. But if you haven't sold me, I'm not changing my opinion. ALSO: If you're right, and you haven't sold me, I may change my opinion - but you'll never know, as I'll make your point my own and sell it better than you to the next guy. HOWEVER: If you sell me, and I change my opinion, you'll earn my respect and receive credit for my turn around. Its how I roll.

Working on it

Passion doesn't have to be loud. It just has to be genuine. Passion isn't about right or wrong... that stuff comes later. Separate them and you'll get closer to the truth.

Sometimes the right or wrong part doesn't come later. That's what scares me a bit. Passion can blind you to understanding. If you have something vested in a position, then you are less likely to listen (really listen) to other ideas.

Without passion, why put your feet on the floor in the morning? If you're gonna be a bear, be a grizzly.

Well. We all have passion for some things, not all things. But because I am not passionate about something doesn't mean I am wrong about it. I could be wrong for a thousand other reasons though.

Passion is good. I like passion. Give me passion! But use it like a spice, don't sprinkle it on everything. I am not passionate about what color wetsuit I wear or whether I have a console or wrist computer and to be honest, I hope nobody cares.

peace!

 

[Teamcasa]

Ken, You continue to make my point as well. After managing a myriad of sales people and their managers through the years, I know how passion and the practice of persuasion are the main guns in thier arsenal. Good, the world and the Scuba community needs people like (you) them.
Keep in mind however, that passion is no substitute for actual facts. The pages of history are replete with passionate people doing extraordinary things in the practice of their deeply held beliefs. Some actually were right.

PerroneFord, Bob (Grateful Diver) and others make good points and are able to communicate well without the histrionics or arrogance sometimes seen here. They are not tempted to slip into the “I’m a better diver so listen up you numbskull.” mode when dispensing their opinions. I thank them for that.

Dave