Nitrox mixes above 40%?

[HIGHwing]

I accept your assumption electronics are all flawed. Therefore, I will ask you to accept as fact that I can precisely establish the PO2 of my rebreather at any time during a dive without the use of any electronics whatsoever. Further, assuming constant depth I can maintain an established PO2 within .1 without any electronics simply by feeling the resistance on the counter-lungs to the limits of consumables.

I think the correlation you're making to electronics as the only thing keeping you alive is misplaced. The physics involved offers you the opportunity to live; the decisions you make determine the outcome. The diver has to decide whether to use manual, hybrid, electronic or perhaps parachuting approach to set point management and always treat the electronics as advisory. You can easily establish a known PO2 outside of the electronics; while I acknowledge the computers aren't perfect the techniques are available to mitigate the technology gaps.

If the technology was failing divers as you propose we'd see trends beginning to form among the herd from the eCCRs, but we don't. The stats have stayed level for several years now and do not favor any machine type, or SP method.

You're welcome to draw your own conclusions...

 

[flots am]

Well gee Flots... I guess I should just give up on my rebreather now.

That makes no difference to me, however if you screw up on the maintenance or operation, it will kill you.

And my remark about "Rebreather usage procedures, maintenance and prep is more like what you would expect from an anesthesiologist, not a SCUBA diver." actually came from an anesthesiologist.

The biggest differences between a rebreather and an anesthesia machine are that the rebreather doesn't have a drug port and is operated by the user. And it's underwater and uses cheaper hardware.

flots.

 

[flots am]

What a total load of crap!

Sorry I offended your marketplace.

I suppose this manufacturer's label was stuck on just for grins?



flots.

 

[AfterDark]

I accept your assumption electronics are all flawed. Therefore, I will ask you to accept as fact that I can precisely establish the PO2 of my rebreather at any time during a dive without the use of any electronics whatsoever. Further, assuming constant depth I can maintain an established PO2 within .1 without any electronics simply by feeling the resistance on the counter-lungs to the limits of consumables.

I think the correlation you're making to electronics as the only thing keeping you alive is misplaced. The physics involved offers you the opportunity to live; the decisions you make determine the outcome. The diver has to decide whether to use manual, hybrid, electronic or perhaps parachuting approach to set point management and always treat the electronics as advisory. You can easily establish a known PO2 outside of the electronics; while I acknowledge the computers aren't perfect the techniques are available to mitigate the technology gaps.

If the technology was failing divers as you propose we'd see trends beginning to form among the herd from the eCCRs, but we don't. The stats have stayed level for several years now and do not favor any machine type, or SP method.

You're welcome to draw your own conclusions...

I don't think we disagree too much here. However I do take exception to the use of the word assumption. I contend it is 15 years of observation and hands on experience. Small point but I want to make it clear that while not a CCR diver I do understand ECC's and to a lesser extent the software that makes it go,and yes both are flawed to a degree. The thing that keeps us divers alive while diving is our brains and our gas(es).
I have an issue if I can't at least trick myself into believing that I have 100% control my gear. My understanding is that some CCR's are capable of operation without human intervention beyond monitoring and maintance. Some divers will op for that mode of operation, those divers are IMO walking a thin line. You seem to be more involved than that, good for you. Live long and prosper. Safe diving.

 

[HIGHwing]

Acknowledged. But, I'm going to ask you to consider the following. I refuse to accept the equation Prior Deaths + Current Risk = We have not modified our equipment, training, approach, and behaviors in response to the lessons written in blood.

I'll accept there are probably new and emerging ways to take yourself out, perhaps some not even discovered yet, but at least give the community credit where credit is due for working together to create model behaviors.

 

[flots am]

I don't think we disagree too much here. However I do take exception to the use of the word assumption. I contend it is 15 years of observation and hands on experience. Small point but I want to make it clear that while not a CCR diver I do understand ECC's and to a lesser extent the software that makes it go,and yes both are flawed to a degree.

I'm on the other side. I don't do much hardware, but I've done my share of embedded system software and AFAIK, all embedded systems are flawed in some manner. Even the simple systems. The complicated systems are pretty much guaranteed to have bugs.

When/if bugs will show up is a roll of the dice, but I wouldn't trust any of it with my life.

flots.

 

[fishb0y]

I guess I'll go back to my original observation about so called rebreather 'experts'. I currently dive a rEvo. On my rEvo I have 3 completely independent ways of monitoring my ppO2. With that, I can also add O2 and diluent in 3 different ways. If there is an issue with either onboard bottle, I have a way to plumb in offboard gas so I can continue on the breathing loop. I set my ppO2 at 1.2 and fly it at 1.3; rarely do I need the controller to back me up. I spend 30min prepping prior to my dive and 30min cleaning/maintaining my rEvo post dive. That's about the same amount of time I spent with my OC gear. Most other CCR divers I know prefer to fly their units manually, although I do find it interesting that 'recreational' rebreathers are almost completely electronic, but that's another debate...
I do not disagree that tampering with your breathing environment is a dangerous endeavor, but I guess if your only experience with CCR is reading DandyDon's accident reports and trolling a thread discussing rebreathers, I can see how easy it is to be ignorant on the issue.

 

[wedivebc]

Sorry I offended your marketplace.

I supposed this manufacturer's label was stuck on just for grins?

View attachment 151302

flots.

No what is a load of crap is you guys who constantly highjack a perfectly good thread with this ridiculous agenda of yours now can we please get back to talking about nitrox?

And BTW I have dived about a dozen different rebreathers and I have not seen that label before.

 

[flots am]

No what is a load of crap is you guys who constantly highjack a perfectly good thread with this ridiculous agenda of yours now can we please get back to talking about nitrox?

And BTW I have dived about a dozen different rebreathers and I have not seen that label before.

Page 3

http://www.kissrebreathers.com/images/PDF/ClassicKissManual.pdf
http://www.kissrebreathers.com/images/PDF/explorermanual.pdf

flots.

 

[AfterDark]

Acknowledged. But, I'm going to ask you to consider the following. I refuse to accept the equation Prior Deaths + Current Risk = We have not modified our equipment, training, approach, and behaviors in response to the lessons written in blood.

I'll accept there are probably new and emerging ways to take yourself out, perhaps some not even discovered yet, but at least give the community credit where credit is due for working together to create model behaviors.

I have made no comment on the CCR community positive or negative, only ECCs. CCRs I believe are the future of diving. I won't be part of that future because of $$$ and age but never the less I think one day CCRs will be as common as OC is now and priced so as to be affordable to most divers.
I was once led to believe I'd be living in an underwater city by now, oh well. I remember a time when diving was considered dangerous and only for the strongest swimmers. If someone told us back then that one day handicapped people would be diving we'd have laughed ourselves silly!
I watched OC diving evolve as people died and lessons were written in blood. For example I was just looking at my old UNISUIT owner’s manual, it shows a diver ascending with 2 cement blocks on his arm to illustrate the lift power of the suit. We don’t do that anymore do we? We use liftbags. Why? Because enough people took a fast deadly ride to the surface doing such things, lesson learned protocols changed. Forty years from now who knows what and how people will be diving but some kind of CCR will be the norm IMO.

---------- Post added March 31st, 2013 at 07:02 PM ----------

No what is a load of crap is you guys who constantly highjack a perfectly good thread with this ridiculous agenda of yours now can we please get back to talking about nitrox?

And BTW I have dived about a dozen different rebreathers and I have not seen that label before.

I think the NITROX question was answered already but feel free to post about NITROX instead of defending CCRs.