NITROX marked tanks MUST be filled to 24% or greater?

[NAM001]

It is separated. A PSI VCI can teach the Fill Station Operator class. I teach a FSO class (Fill Station Operator)) for the shop staff - which meets the hazmat recurring training requirement. There is no formal PSI certificate. I keep records of the training for the shop - and print a recognition certificate for the participants.

There is no separation between the hazmat and the psi inspection . the 2 courses are taught together and is covered by the cert you get for PSI VIP. As far as I know you cant take vip without taking the hazmat. Theyare 2 courses but taught together. IOf they teach only hazmat then ill have to believe you on that. The hazmat covers the FSO training. As long as you have are current in the hazmat you can train those in your shop to meed the 3 year retraining rule for hazmat.

 

[bl6394]

There is no separation between the hazmat and the psi inspection . the 2 courses are taught together and is covered by the cert you get for PSI VIP. As far as I know you cant take vip without taking the hazmat. Theyare 2 courses but taught together. IOf they teach only hazmat then ill have to believe you on that. The hazmat covers the FSO training. As long as you have a current in the hazmat you can train those in your shop to meed the 3 year reteaining rule for hazmat.

We're on the same page. The VCI course covers both hazmat and inspection. A current VCI is authorized to teach the hazmat portion of the VCI course - roughly half the material. That is called a FSO course - and meets the OSHA requirement. VCI is a certification with PSI. FSO is recurring training that meets the regulatory requirements.

 

[NAM001]

We're on the same page. The VCI course covers both hazmat and inspection. A current VCI is authorized to teach the hazmat portion of the VCI course - roughly half the material. That is called a FSO course - and meets the OSHA requirement. VCI is a certification with PSI. FSO is recurring training that meets the regulatory requirements.

I thought we were together on this, just assumed I used a few poor chosen words.

 

[BRT]

No its not. PSI has had the market cornered in that by federal regulation PSI is the only agency of inspectors that are allowed/authorized to inspect a certain catagory of tanks. That alone gives the impression that PSi is the top and no others can compete. Also with tying the hasmat to the inspection PSI can say that other agencies are not proper because they are out of date. Only the has mat goes out of date. Hense the competition. Other agencies are teaching a version of inspection like PSI does to over come the stigma of being not in compliance with the fed regs.. They are copying PSI's material and PSI is pissed that they do the research and work and the other agencies are using their final product as the base for their versions. Its like the record companies and bootleg copies. Only they are not copying they are saying that if the feds recognize PSI as a reliable source then they can use the source and skip their own legal and research costs. All you need is a student manual and you have the course. The other agencies want access to the full line of inspectable tanks. PSI is holding their own with the feds for a couple of reasons. They were first n the game and it takes time to change the rules to let all others in the game. and PSI can say they are always up to date and the competitors are not because they copy PSI which makes them behind the curve. As psi is not specifically a scuba organization and more a general tank inspection group adapted for scuba much of the info does not apply to 99.9% of scuba tanks. The remaining .!% is the special category of tanks. (All fiber tanks like firefighters use) But because of that .1% Psi can say they are fully accredited by the feds to handle all your needs unlike any of the remaining compeditors.

Are you telling me that gas suppliers like Oxarc, Norco and Praxair have to have PSI training?

 

[NAM001]

Are you telling me that gas suppliers like Oxarc, Norco and Praxair have to have PSI training?

No i am not ... PSI specific training NO ........ Hasmat yes and it does not have to come form PSI. If the company does its own tank inspections then they need that training also just like they need the proper training for doing Hydro testing. I am sure that those companies you reference are complying with federal requirements. Larger companies IMO have no problems with proper training. Small operations like scuba shops usually do not have the resources to comply. The PSI classes as we know it, cover them mostly. The training is not scuba specific, per se' but is taught in general as it applies to scuba. Large companies have safety departments to keep up with things like this and scuba shops normally do not. Scuba comes into this arena because pressure is a hazardous material. Hence there is a high chance that things are not done right in those shops. Once again PSI is there to tell you that if you comply with the program you significantly lower the chances of a judgement being made against you by a court in the event of an accident.

Here is an example. fill station in one room and the tanks being filled , contained is a separate location away from the FSO station. So here is the question. How do you fill a tank on site with your own compressor, when there is not a shop fill station at the dive location. So by their taught procedures and requirements you fill on site and you violate the law. Another is one dealing with wet filling tanks. There is no law or reg regarding this however PSI says NO. They feel that if your tank is getting hot then you are filling to fast. Really this is probably true. The main issue with that seems to be keeping water out of the tank so there is borne a global NO GO on it. That NO GO is sourced form PSI and not a higher authority, so there is a degree of mistrust when it comes to PSI as to what is really regulation and what is organization pushed opinion. Obviouosly the aspect of where does the line exist between commercial and personal application varies depending on who you talk to. IE You must have a current hydro to fill a tank. commercial YES private????.

 

[BRT]

No i am not ... PSI specific training NO ........ Hasmat yes and it does not have to come form PSI. If the company does its own tank inspections then they need that training also just like they need the proper training for doing Hydro testing. I am sure that those companies you reference are complying with federal requirements. Larger companies IMO have no problems with proper training. Small operations like scuba shops usually do not have the resources to comply. The PSI classes as we know it, cover them mostly. The training is not scuba specific, per se' but is taught in general as it applies to scuba. Large companies have safety departments to keep up with things like this and scuba shops normally do not. Scuba comes into this arena because pressure is a hazardous material. Hence there is a high chance that things are not done right in those shops. Once again PSI is there to tell you that if you comply with the program you significantly lower the chances of a judgement being made against you by a court in the event of an accident.

Here is an example. fill station in one room and the tanks being filled , contained is a separate location away from the FSO station. So here is the question. How do you fill a tank on site with your own compressor, when there is not a shop fill station at the dive location. So by their taught procedures and requirements you fill on site and you violate the law. Another is one dealing with wet filling tanks. There is no law or reg regarding this however PSI says NO. They feel that if your tank is getting hot then you are filling to fast. Really this is probably true. The main issue with that seems to be keeping water out of the tank so there is borne a global NO GO on it. That NO GO is sourced form PSI and not a higher authority, so there is a degree of mistrust when it comes to PSI as to what is really regulation and what is organization pushed opinion. Obviouosly the aspect of where does the line exist between commercial and personal application varies depending on who you talk to. IE You must have a current hydro to fill a tank. commercial YES private????.

You said "PSI is the only agency of inspectors that are allowed/authorized to inspect a certain catagory of tanks." What category is that? Something big gas suppliers do not work with?

 

[NAM001]

You said "PSI is the only agency of inspectors that are allowed/authorized to inspect a certain catagory of tanks." What category is that? Something big gas suppliers do not work with?

I don't deal with them but IF I remember right it is the carbon fiber SCBA tanks. I doubt if the communitys you are speeking of would use them. These tanks are the size of small scuba and they weigh next to nothing. I am not referring to the carbon wrapped al tanks. It is the tanks that are pure fiber tanks. They have a limited usage life can only be recerted once perhaps and are dead at 10 or 15 years. Also if I remember right they are not authorized for scuba use and may have to be re vis'd after each use. since we dontuse them I don't keep up with them. The meat of the matter is that in federal regulation PSI is the only agency that is allowed to give legal proof of inspection for those tanks. I don't think that big gas suppliers would not use them as they are expensive fragile and not cost effective. I will look and get the exact tank type for you if I can find it.

 

[LariatAdvance]

If someone can post a reference to this i would like to see it. Last i knew any mixd above 23.5 and 50 psi required a O2 cleaning and also a Nitrox Sticker on the tank. Is this somewhat of an extrapulation on this chain of rules?

Above 40% OR partial pressure filling requires 02 cleaning. My shop has no problem with me switching back and forth between nitrox and air in the same tank. They bank their 30% nitrox, so partial pressure filling doesn't come into play.

"Gas mixes with more than 40% oxygen require equipment, including cylinder, that has been cleaned to oxygen service specifications. Because the cylinder valve and interior will be in contact with pure oxygen, if partial pressure blending with oxygen will be used, the cylinder must meet oxygen service standards, even if the final enriched air blend will have less than 40% oxygen. The standard SCUBA cylinder doesn't meet these requirements." ~PADI

"If an enriched air cylinder that has been prepared for oxygen service is accidentally filled from a conventional air source, it must be serviced and cleaned by someone qualified to service enriched air equipment before being exposed to more than 40% oxygen again." ~PADI

I've never been refused nitrox because I didn't have an 02 clean sticker. But then I've never used a dive shop that does partial pressure filling.

 

[lonebrave]

I've never been refused nitrox because I didn't have an 02 clean sticker. But then I've never used a dive shop that does partial pressure filling.

That's nice, and the way I feel it should be. I've run into a few shops, though, that bank 32% and still require O2 cleaning...another of the 'their shop, their rules' situation if that's where I want/need to get fills.

 

[Scared Silly]

"Gas mixes with more than 40% oxygen require equipment, including cylinder, that has been cleaned to oxygen service specifications. Because the cylinder valve and interior will be in contact with pure oxygen, if partial pressure blending with oxygen will be used, the cylinder must meet oxygen service standards, even if the final enriched air blend will have less than 40% oxygen. The standard SCUBA cylinder doesn't meet these requirements." ~PADI

"If an enriched air cylinder that has been prepared for oxygen service is accidentally filled from a conventional air source, it must be serviced and cleaned by someone qualified to service enriched air equipment before being exposed to more than 40% oxygen again." ~PADI

Please supply a link to the above.