Nitrox Class Without Tables or Math...OK?

[gcbryan]

Well, let's put it this way...

Most of the responses I have encountered for this thread are VERY quick to judge and post, and VERY slow to put their "money where their mouth is"

I have reserved judgement based on the fact that I have my reservations. BUT, unlike you and others, I will be sitting in the class, and will have 1st-hand knowledge for my critique, rather than spouting off about what I THINK is going on

I have no idea what is going on in the class. If he is teaching through one of the standard agencies I believe he has to teach what his ad appears to say will not be covered.

All I or most of the other post's are commenting on is his ad.

 

[The Chairman]

It sounds like you are taking the opportunity to learn less

Again, consider that you are condemning a class AND an instructor you have never experienced.

Seriously, the only argument here is not with learning to use computers which is how most people dive after class. It's with not learning the "why" behind what the computer is doing.

Which is WHAT is taught in the class.

I don't understand the point in having a Nitrox class and not including how to figure MOD or optimal mix at least while one is in a classroom situation.

We do... USING YOUR DIVE COMPUTER to accomplish this.

Those not exposed to a Nitrox class might feel that the math is too hard but surely Pete, you as the instructor don't feel that it's too hard to understand so why not include that info along with how to use a computer.

KISS: Keep It Simple Silly! I have seen too many classes (like when I got certified) that took WAY TOO LONG to teach math challenged divers how to do simple algebra. They SHOULD have emphasized safety and what those figures really mean. The students were so stinking frustrated that they were burned out by the time they got to the safety issues: so was the instructor. Funny part? I showed my instructor a FAR, FAR easier way of calculating MODs than the one he was using.

All I cover is safety, safety, safety. To indicate otherwise is not only insulting, but indicates a willful ignorance of the facts.

Let's look at a really simple issue: MOD. What's more important? How to figure what it is or understand why it's dangerous to exceed it? When I plug in my FO2, my MOD is displayed. I'm gonna HAVE to do that anyway, so why not let my computer do it for me? Now I can concentrate on WHAT THAT REALLY MEANS TO ME and not on the mechanics of how to get there.

 

[Rick Inman]

Here's the issue (I'm not talking about NetDoc's class here, just in general, because it's an industry trend). The question is, if I know the "how" of it, do I really need to know the "why" of it?

What I don't understand is, when you explain what MOD means, the easy math becomes self evident. If they understand partial pressure, they can write the equation themselves. You'd have to make a point to not tell them what an atmosphere is (33FSW - opps, I spilled the beans!) or they'll figure it out on their own.

All learning begins with, "why". Can you imagine having a doctor doing heart surgery without knowing how the pulmonary system works?

The doctor would say, "Blood flow? Naw, I don't worry about that stuff. I just follow these handy instructions on my laptop. It tells me where to cut and clamp and stitch and everything."

It seems to me that people learning these diving skills would want to know the math, would want to know the "why", and in fact, would insist on it if they were going to pay you.

Only in scuba can you advertise that we teach you less, give you less information, make you less educated , and attract students. The argument is that you don't need to know. Even if true, so what. Isn't it automatic that you'd want to know?

It's sad, IMO, that there is a market for people who are looking for the easy way, instead of the complete way. Personally, the more information you give me, the more I value the class.

 

[The Chairman]

Only in scuba can you advertise that we teach you less, give you less information, make you less educated , and attract students. The argument is that you don't need to know. Even if true, so what. Isn't it automatic that you'd want to know?

Well, your premise is flawed. Check out

http://www.danceeasy.com/

http://www.easyflight.com/eftrng.html

http://www.cmsmadesimple.org/

http://www.quiescencemusic.com/napme.html

http://www.totaltricoaching.com/programs.htm

http://www.phpclasses.org/browse/package/706.html

http://training.jhu.edu/html/Financial/fathomelinks/admtutorial/Pcard/tos_04.html

I am sure you can find many more classes that advertise that they make it "Easy to Learn". Not everyone shares your (and my) love for knowledge. Some people just want to dive and they want to dive NitrOx.

 

[Rick Inman]

Not everyone shares your (and my) love for knowledge.

Hey, that's a lot nicer way of saying what my wife just said after I read her my post. She totally disagrees with me, which makes you both wrong.

BTW, Dance Easy, uh? Hummm....

 

[H2Andy]

what do you need to know to dive nitrox safely?

how to calculate bottom time on any given mix

how to calculate MOD on any given mix

how to keep track of your O2 clock

with a computer, you can actively (actively) do the first two, and passively
do the second (the computer keeps track of this for you).

what do i mean? the computer is a table. you go into "plan" mode and set your
mix (let's say 32%). then you scroll trhough to your desired depth of X feet.
now you know how long you can stay at X feet with 32%. this is the same
as checking a table.

on the second dive, you do the same.

(slight tangent: what if the computer breaks down? well, if you don't know how to use tables, you are hosed. so, it behooves you to learn how to use tables if you want to keep diving after your computer goes kapoot)

as to calculating MOD. this is also information the computer gives you (well, mine does). once i set the mix in, it tells me max depth = 114 feet (for example). that's
just like doing the calculation yourself.

(slight tangent: what if your computer breaks? well, then you're hosed unless
you can do the calculation yourself, which is rather easy: MOD (at 1.4 ata)
is equal to (52.8/02%) - 33 )

as for the oxygen clock, you just have to "trust" that the computer is keeping track
of it ok. but heck, you trust it to tell you the right depth and time at depth, not
to mention NDL time left at that depth.

(slight tangent again: what happens if the computer breaks? well, then, you're
hosed unless you can calculate the oxygen clock using the chart)

so... i think you can teach a Nitrox class safely based on a computer, so long as
the student understands that if the computer breaks on them, they are at a real
disadvantage.

 

[Charlie99]

....... it's an industry trend). The question is, if I know the "how" of it, do I really need to know the "why" of it?
.........
All learning begins with, "why". Can you imagine having a doctor doing heart surgery without knowing how the pulmonary system works?
.......
It's sad, IMO, that there is a market for people who are looking for the easy way, instead of the complete way. Personally, the more information you give me, the more I value the class.

Your way (which is also my preferred way) is NOT the only way to learn. Understanding the "why" is nice, but not NECESSARY, in many cases.

There are indeed different styles of learning. People have different goals. One of the great things about our country is that we have lots of choices available.

The minimum knowledge needed for safe scuba diving is very limited. Scuba dive training can be very simple --- where training is defined as being taught what is needed to perform the task.

 

[The Chairman]

so... i think you can teach a Nitrox class safely based on a computer, so long as the student understands that if the computer breaks on them, they are at a real disadvantage.

You know, I like this guy!

 

[H2Andy]

i have my moments

 

[The Chairman]

You have more than moments!