Nitrox Class Without Tables or Math...OK?

[MikeFerrara]

This is W-A-Y misleading! Those questions were answered in detail.This is a strawman fallacy. The comment was directed to those who indicated that those unwilling to take a NitrOx course with tables should not dive. YOU made the claim that this was "TOO HARD" for my students. My point (sans distortions) is that it is NOT NEEDED for their style of diving.

Lots of things aren't needed but are useful. I think what these courses leave out is useful and easy to provide even if the students don't know it yet. Some might even just take your word that it's not needed. Hopefully they won't find out differently later but they can always take a second nitrox class right?

 

[MikeFerrara]

I would say, based on my experience, and not having taken the SDI nitrox course, (based on your examples of use) that it would be cumbersome for any nitrox diver. A computer that resets itself once programmed it NOT a safe computer.

You are getting into my field of experince here... computers

As a matter of fact it's my former field also. I spent 15 years as an engineer with various titles including but limited to software engineer, automation engineer, test engineer and manufacturing engineer...ie processes, process controls, process reliability and the automation of those processes.

All any machine or piece of software needs to do is what the design specification states that it will do. As far as I can tell, the computer mentioned performs as the manufacturer states. The computer, however is only one element in diving processes. Other components include the divers knowlege and skills. As long as the diver is able to perform needed functions that the computer doesn't all is well and you end up with a capable process. Instructors of this class apparently feel that the process they teach will work with any nitrox dive computer because I haven't heard that the certification limits them to specific computers.

I always found that when specifying a process I had to also specify enough about the equipment to be used in order to end up with a reliable process. Testing was used to verify that process capability.

Is the SDI process procedures capable with any nitrox computer? Has that been tested? If so how and what were the results? We should be able to give my computer to one of Pete's graduates (better yet some statistically significant number of them) and the process should prove capable right?

I contend that since the instructor isn't even diving with the student that actal function of the process being handed off isn't being verified in even the most minimal way. You tell them to plan it and dive it "this way" without verifying that they can? I think that from a process point of view this is demonstrable a totally invalid assumption.

Based on the fact that you stated your computer is "more dangerous for some than it is for others"... it makes Pete's point that there are different ways to teach the same thing... with or without a "more dangerous for some than it is for others" computer

No, I think it makes my point because as far as I can tell, Pete doesn't know what kind of nitrox computers students will be bringing to class and has put no restrictions on what nitrox computers he is willing to cover in class. One or more of them may have computers like mine. I can only assume that he feels he is prepared to tailor his class to those computers.

I don't know Pete's entire point, but that is why I am sitting in on his class Tuesday, and will write a report based on the class. But, not knowing the whole class has made me take a "wait and see" attitude, rather than a "it's just wrong" attitude

I'm a bit far away to get there to attend a classroom session. As I stated in an earlier post though I would love to dive with some of those students to see how they really do in the water, though. Often thiongs look good in class but end up pretty foobar in the water so in the water is where I would like to see the results of the course.

A difference of philosophies... that one I won't even get into... Mine is quite different from yours AND Pete's (as stated in the quote above)

Yes, very different philosophies.

 

[H2Andy]

i would simply like to point out that by now, both sides have expounded their
relative positions like, a gizillion times, and neither is any closer to convincing
the other of their positition

because

we're talking about two different philosophies here, and the twain shall never meet

however

not everyone who takes up bicycle riding wants to take it all the way
to become an olympic athlete, or even just a national athlete, or even
just a state-wide athlete, or even a city athlete. maybe they don't
want to compete at all. maybe they just want to run fast with their friends
and get as good as they can. or maybe they don't even want that. maybe
they just want to ride and take it easy and enjoy the scenery on weekends.

what is it to me what someone's goals are? as long as they can do it safely,
then go for it.

and a nitrox class based on a computer is safe. bottom line.

it's not for everyone, but it has its place.

 

[The Chairman]

Lots of things aren't needed but are useful.

Knowing how to program in PHP is "useful" here on ScubaBoard, but it's DEFINITELY NOT NEEDED. I'm gonna let the students figure out what they want and what they DON'T want in a class. So far this year no one has asked for or signed up for my comprehensive NitrOx Class (NAUI), but I have taught almost 20 (after tonight) with SDI's Easy NitrOx curriculum. Go figure!

As for your computer... I guess it's like a Hub. Would you attempt to teach someone how to dive a Hub? In the same respect, I would advise any student that has an incompatible/low tech computer to upgrade BEFORE they take the class. Why dive with crap?

 

[tedtim]

I have a nitrox computer, use it to dive nitrox but also understand the formulas and even more important the concepts behind them. As to why most courses don’t cover computer specifics, every computer layout is a bit different. I personally don’t want to sit in a class I paid for to learn about my computer. That’s why they give you the manual when you buy it. If someone wants to pay to betaught about their computer thats fine with me as long as the basic background info is covered.

Miranda

Interesting. In a way you are also supporting online training then. If I have a book that explains the basic background, and I can pass a relatively simple test, then I should get the card. Truly the only practical demonstration of a skill that I learned on the Nitrox course was to use the analyzer to determine the mix. The rest is just "simple math" and study on physics and physiology. Doing the dives is a bonus (another discussion on this already and no attempt to hijack).

Different people have different learning styles. There are many who do not learn much from reading a manual and that do need some instruction. For these people a course on using the dive computer would be a benefit. For others there is no value. I suggest that it is the same for the computer nitrox course. For some, they could learn everything they need to by reading the manual or other books. The requirement is to have the c-card so that you can get the fills. To get the c-card requires demonstrating an understanding of the course material through some sort of test or other demonstration of skills.

AFAIK there is no requirement to demonstrate any level of skill or understanding of how to use a computer, but the majority of the divers I see have one. I suggest that many of them are just as dangerous to themselves when diving 21% as they would be diving 32%. For these people, learning about nitrox using formulas and tables, and then sending them off to dive on computers is a bit strange. Better to teach them how to properly use the computer. The same use of computer skills applies to diving on air.

 

[DiveTyme]

I read a lot of this thread (sigh) but not all of it. I boils down to the same old thing... the way some instructors choose to instruct, and others that don't like it. I require a computer if you are going to take nitrox from me. I do teach tables because they are required, but after the class I doubt if any of the students use them. But I don't fault the instructor that teaches tables only. It is his students and his business. You go Pete!
Tim

 

[my1ocean]

You know,

I have yet to see a NitrOx class that comprehensively taught the student HOW to use their computer! Now THAT is negligence. You call it "dumbing down", I call it focusing on using your tools wisely and efficiently.

And no, I am not ashamed!!! Are you ashamed of your effete snobbery when it comes to who can dive, much less dive NitrOx?

OW divers are taught tables, NOT to dive a computer. Why? Because in most teaching theories, it is important to understand the principals of reaching an answer. When you were in math class the teacher didn't ask you to memorize 3 squared is 9. He/She wrote down 3x3x3.

Call me old fashioned, but yes, I believe one should be expected to understand the principals of a subject when they end a class. It seems the no math version is the "resort" version of a NitrOx class. And I would have to agree, it is the dumbing down of an already shakey diving population.

Let me put it this way. If some one showed up at my shop not knowing the basics of nitrox (I usually discuss PPO2's with customers during analyzation) it would set off alarm bells in my head. Does this person really know what they are doing? I would keep a closer eye on this diver or instruct the captain who had them on board to do the same. In a sense, it is moving a diver's personal responsibility to that of the shop or dive professional. This is a trend that has spawned so many SB threads and is a trend leading to more and more litigation.

Guess my point of view is clear. I don't think it's a good idea to send divers out with a partial tool bag. Or a least being exposed to how EAD's, PPo2's, and MOD's are derived.

I understand the desire to get divers out diving and enjoying as soon as possible. I concede that most OW diver's who come into the shop have all but forgotten how to use a table. But, with a little reminding, remember quickly. To me, it seems like giving a person a drill and telling them, "here's how to make a hole, here's how to reverse the motor." but not telling them how to change the bit or even that using this tool while standing in the rain can kill you.

m

 

[Blackwood]

Knowing how to use a formula is not synonymous with understanding a formula. Take EAD, for example. Anyone can plug numbers into published formulae, but that doesn’t mean that they understand said formula.

An understanding of where ((FN2*(D+33))/.79)-33 comes from (i.e. derivation) is an understanding of the formula.

But that understanding is completely irrelevant to safely diving Nitrox (and similarly, understanding the table algorithms is irrelevant to safely using dive tables).

Furthermore, knowing how to use the formula is irrelevant IF you plan to only dive with computers. The vast majority of recreational divers do just that. They want to jump in, look around, come up, do it again, and not worry about tracking/planning anything for themselves. That could the very definition of “recreational” diver.

Also, while a computer will do a given calculation the same way each time, a human with a calculator may hit the wrong button.

Personally, I like to understand what’s going on, be it decompression algorithms or basic algebraic formulae. I feel comforted by my understanding of what SHOULD be when I’m told by various sources (e.g. tables, dive computers, v-planner, calculators) what IS.

But what comforts me and what I like isn’t necessary, nor may it comfort other people.

I think it’s great that someone is offering courses geared directly at computer divers. Teaching someone how to effectively use their tool of choice is better than teaching them some other tool that they’ll choose not to use.

That said, I am emphatically opposed to enabling divers to purchase Nitrox without requiring them to first dive Nitrox (for reasons I’ve stated in numerous other posts), so I give this course one thumb up and one thumb down.




I have a question for Pete: What do you do if someone brings in a computer that’s incapable of performing the operations you teach?

As for teaching how to use a computer.....they work in so many different ways. I've have many different computers since I bought my Edge back in '86. Every time I get a new computer, I have to learn how to use it. Unless the folks who make 'em get together and set up standards, I don't believe it's possible to teach students how to use their computer unless you either mandate everyone has the same computer or you spend lots of one on one time including teaching yourself how to use that particular computer.

Agreed 100%

 

[my1ocean]

I read a lot of this thread (sigh) but not all of it. I boils down to the same old thing... the way some instructors choose to instruct, and others that don't like it. I require a computer if you are going to take nitrox from me. I do teach tables because they are required, but after the class I doubt if any of the students use them. But I don't fault the instructor that teaches tables only. It is his students and his business. You go Pete!
Tim

Teaching a computer along with the tables is great. I do the same. But, even if the student doesn't touch a table again for a year. If some one has to sit down with them and go over calculating an MOD a year after their class, it won't be totally new. There will be some understanding there already.

 

[my1ocean]

Furthermore, knowing how to use the formula is irrelevant IF you plan to only dive with computers. The vast majority of recreational divers do just that. They want to jump in, look around, come up, do it again, and not worry about tracking/planning anything for themselves. That could the very definition of “recreational” diver.

Where does the responsibility lie when this diver gets into trouble. The diver who just wanted to jump in and do it again. Or the DM who told that diver not to go below a certain depth because he understood exaclty what would happen if that diver did.

Recreational diving is not without responsibility or knowlege. Is the judge going to give you a break on your DUI because you didn't know Zima had alchohol in it? Mother ocean will definitely not give you a break. Ever. Yes, you may make it home safely most of the time, but is that really the chance you want to take. I guess the answer from most would be, yes.