Nitrogen narcosis and alcohol use.

[gcbryan]

I'd say the dive shop owner needs proof to support his statement. Otherwise it sounds like BS to me. Do people who eat more cake get less narced? If you say no...where is your proof?

I agree that those who drink and are able to complete common tasks are probably the same people who who complete common tasks while narced but it has nothing to do with the similarities of alcohol and narcosis.

Regarding the post about alcohol not being an anesthetic...I'm sure it has been used. Haven't you watched any Westerns Drink enough and you will be numb which is a good state to be in when the doctor carves the bullet out of your chest

 

[DevonDiver]

I'd say the dive shop owner needs proof to support his statement. Otherwise it sounds like BS to me. Do people who eat more cake get less narced? If you say no...where is your proof?

EXACTLY!!

There is so much BS in the dive community. Most of it originates from idiot dive professionals and is then 'regurgitated as gospel' by other divers who want to appear knowledgeable and well informed.

When someone makes an outlandish claim... then the burden of proof is on them.

If there's no credible evidence (scientific/medical papers) available to support a theory... then the likelihood is that the 'theory' was conceptualised on a floor of a bar and has no substance whatsoever.

I agree that those who drink and are able to complete common tasks are probably the same people who who complete common tasks while narced but it has nothing to do with the similarities of alcohol and narcosis.

I used to drink when I was young, but I rarely do now, other than an occasional glass of wine with meal. If I drank heavily now, I would simply fall over and vomit. I've also done deep air dives to below 240ft.

There's no link. The sensations aren't the same. The coping mechanisms aren't the same. The results aren't the same.

When I am down at depth, I am not 'fighting off' inebriation. I am focused and clear-headed. Sort of an 'auto-pilot' as long as I am within my comfort zone and using ingrained skills and procedures. I know that the narcosis is there... but it only becomes apparant when I have to deal with novel problems or unexpected emergencies.

It is not the same as being drunk.

Those that pander around that silly analogy do a dis-service to other divers. They reduce and confuse diver awareness of narcosis...leading to greater risks for the mis-informed divers. Shame on you.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

If there's no credible evidence (scientific/medical papers) available to support a theory... then the likelihood is that the 'theory' was conceptualised on a floor of a bar and has no substance whatsoever.

Keep an open mind. Many a science experiment has been "conceptualised" on the floor of a bar. Some scientists like to drink, too.

There's no link. The sensations aren't the same. The coping mechanisms aren't the same. The results aren't the same.

Are you 100% sure about this? We still know very little about the exact mechanism underlying the narcosis phenomenon. It would be interesting to do some fMRI brain studies on alcohol-imbibing subjects (2 groups: alcohol naive and hardcore drinkers) and diving subjects in a hyperbaric chamber (same 2 groups). Standard cognitive tests conducted during the trials could be used to correlate with the fMRI results.

The notion that there's cross-tolerance between alcohol dosage and diving narcosis may be misguided (despite the Hobbs study suggesting the contrary). It's widely accepted that alcohol tolerance is a liver-based metabolic mechanism involving cytochrome P450 enzymes. I am 99.9% sure that narcosis in divers has nothing to do with liver metabolism. This does not preclude the possibility that, on a neuronal level, alcohol and the agent of narcosis may be working in a similar way on ligand-gated ion channels (found in the plasma membranes of neurons)...or whatever the prevailing hypothesis is regarding the molecular mechanism of alcohol intoxication.

 

[Paladin]

Shame on you.

Shame on me for what? For asking a question and seeking valid information? I have not taken a side on this issue. I am just as much in the dark on the subject as anyone else.

I am easily narked (At least I was all those years ago. I don't know about now.). I am not a drinker and have never been drunk in my life. So, if someone tells me that a diver who his a heavy drinker can handle nitrogen narcosis better than a non-drinker, who am I to argue? It sounded logical at the time.

 

[theduckguru]

Divers who habitually drink alcohol are called alcoholics. Many alcoholics have a lowered tolerance to alcohol. I doubt they are less subseptable to narcs.

Back in the summer of 1977, I was involved with the recovery of a boat that had sunk in 130 FFW. I was diving my DA Aqua-Master double hose reg on a steel 72. My dive buddy, Fuzz, and I went down first to find the boat and mark it. It was during that dive, my first ever to that depth, that I got narcked. Big time. I remember following Fuzz down to find the boat and tie a marker to it. It was cold down there and we weren't wearing wetsuits. My teeth were chattering on the rubber mouthpiece and my breathing was becoming erratic. We lucked out and found the boat right away. I was starting to feel light headed and giddy as I watched Fuzz attach the marker and let it go. That was the last I remember. The next thing I knew we were at 90 feet and ascending. Fuzz was holding my mouthpiece in my mouth and hauling me up by my harness strap.

I spent the rest of the time doing support work for the other divers. I have not attempted a dive to that depth since. My personal limit is 100 ft., though even a dive to that depth has been a rarity.

A few days later, I was discussing the incident with the owner/instructor at the dive shop that conducted the recovery and he told me that I was most likely sensitive to narcosis because I was not then (nor am I now) a drinker. He said that divers who habitually drink alcohol are less susceptible to nitrogen narcosis, while non-drinkers, like myself, are influenced more easily and at shallower depths.

It seemed logical to me at the time.

But is there any truth to it? I'm just curious.

 

[knowone]

I have found over thirty years, with periods of abstinence, of being a member
of the drink diver club, that there is a correlation between the way drinkers act
under some mild influence of alcohol, and under some influence of narcosis.

Operating impaired is less of an issue for a drinker.

It seems that people who are able to be reasonably behaved on
their Gin's above, cope reasonably well on their Martini's below.

There is a highly unrecommended very fine line where the length
of time between gin's and martini's plays also a very relevant role
with regards, as to whether the narcosis will be euphoric or dark
also reflecting the psychology of the person when either drinking
or diving.

There is no resistance to narcosis beyond daily physiological changes

You are able however to build a resistance to operating under
it's influence.
A resistance that must be re learned as soon as you are out from under
it's influence.

Alcoholics or habituals or tolerance levels or drunks or years served drinking, related in text, is far more complicated than anything nitrogen, and only applies to the reader at the time, and if they are a drinker or not or have one at home.

Also considering a drinker has alcohol gyrating through the system for a 24 hour period whether that period be one day, three days, one week, or a year.



Well wasn't that all a pile of all the same stuff hey.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I do think that there is a skill that can be developed for recognizing impairment, and subsequently maintaining some amount of focus/control through it. While people generally significantly overestimate the effects of this skill (usually to the detriment of mankind), I do think it exists on some level. I would imagine that - to the extent that such a skill exists - development of said skill while drinking probably has application to dealing with narcosis.

How likely is it that a higher percentage of alcohol users also use other intoxicants? After practicing "gettin' it done" on a variety of different mind altering substances, often in combination, just being narc'd is no biggie!

 

[DevonDiver]

Shame on me for what? For asking a question and seeking valid information? I have not taken a side on this issue. I am just as much in the dark on the subject as anyone else.

Sorry for the confusion... it wasn't aimed at you. Just a general comment towards the type of divers I had mentioned before that statement (regurgitators). I wasn't implying you were such...

 

[Rhone Man]

Interesting thread. My 2 PSI:

• What it proves I don't know, but I used to get a lot more narc'ed as a kid than I did as an adult (yeah, we went deeper than we should have in the 80s).
• I don't entirely buy Andy's point that nitrogen operates as an anaesthetic. It certainly has hallucinogenic qualities if you go deep enough, and (medical bods correct me) I didn't think that was a normal property of an anaesthetic.
• I tend to believe that drinkers would simply be more accustomed to coping with slower motor skills / mental faculties than teetotallers.
• I also tend to believe people can become accustomed to dealing with narcosis at the chemical level rather than purely at the "coping" level (although the "coping" level probably exaggerates the perception). Using the (admittedly imperfect) alcohol analogy: if I don't drink for three months, I get a buzz off a couple of beers. In my usual hedonistic state I can drink 6 or 8 without feeling the same buzz.

 

[BoltSnap]

I don't drink myself at all, never did. I never noticed any more impairment when diving deep than my buddies who do drink (I don't have friends that drink heavily that I know of however). I have done many dives in the 100 - 200ft depth without any significant issues related to narcosis that me or my buddies can discern.

This opinion/information is anecdotal and is not based on any science or independent verification!!