Nice and simple question about wings

[OneBrightGator]

Maybe the design of the wing has something to do with it, since the Venture has most of it's buoyancy lower. Who knows, whatever works, works.

No, I'm talking about throwing your gear into the water without you (and the positive buoyancy of your exposure protection) and that you should still be able to float it with the wing.

I'm tossed my gear in the water before, LP104, DR Wreck light, SS backplate and my 30lb wing floated it just fine.

 

[Dan Gibson]

I'm thinging the same as you and Spectre. I'm just not following the math here.

The wing needs to provide enough lift for your gear to float at the surface without you in it.

I know when I used a drysuit with 400 g thinsulate and a 27# pioneer wing, I had problems floating my rig without me in it. That's why I switched to a 36# pioneer wing for single tank diving in my drysuit and 400 g thinsulate.

Please run some numbers so I can see how this is even possible. What I would like to see is what it takes to sink a person in a particular exposure suit, mask fins, gloves. Don't include the rig gear. Then tell me how negative or positive the rig is without you in it with full tanks. Then give the volume of gas so one can calculate the weight of the gas.

Don't bother with wetsuits since I figure if it's that cold (due to normal water temps or lost exposure protection due to depth) I should be in a drysuit.

No offence intended Bob, and I don't mean to call your skills or experience into question. I'm sure you know what you're doing, and I'd be VERY suprised to find out you (or any other experienced diver) were 25+ lbs. overweighted. That said, I'm having a lot of trouble understanding how it's possible for you to simultaneously be properly weighted and unable to be supported by 25+ lbs of positive bouyancy. In my experience, it's awfully difficult for me to sink or even swim down with that much flotation at the surface.

Is it a matter of positioning in the water (head more elevated, etc) that makes the larger wings more comfortable, or do you really sink (as opposed to flip over or something like that) if you don't kick? If it's the latter, there's definately something about the situation that I'm completely failing to wrap my head around, which is probably the case since you have many times more dives logged than I do. I'd just like to understand what it is that I'm missing.

It sounds to me like you're saying that you sink when you add bouyancy to a neutral rig, and I hope you can see why I have trouble with that.

 

[CRDiver]

" 'The Fundamentals' states that a single tank should not be more than a 30lb lift..."

Pretty stupid statement for "Fundamentals" to make since JJ's company makes three single tank wings with ratings of over 30lbs of lift - 40lb. Eclipse, and 36 & 45lb Pioneer. Either the statement is wrong, or Halcyon isn't "Doing It Right."

 

[Soggy]

Either the statement is wrong, or Halcyon isn't "Doing It Right."

Not everything Halcyon manufactures conforms to the DIR philosophy. The ACB weighting system comes to mind. And like all systems, it has evolved over time and the book has been around for a while, and as such is slightly out of date.

Halcyon is an equipment company. GUE is the training organization. They are not the same entity.

 

[Soggy]

FYI, from the GUE Standards for DIR Fundamentals

Equipment Requirements

4. Buoyancy Compensation Device: A diver's buoyancy compensation device should be back-mounted and minimalist in nature. It should come free of extraneous strings, tabs, or other material. There should be no restrictive bands or "bungee" of any sort affixed to the buoyancy cell. In addition, diver lift should not exceed 50lbs for a single tank and 80lbs for double tanks. Wing size and shape should be appropriate to the cylinder size(s) employed for training.

Emphasis is mine, but the key here is that you need an appropriate amount of lift. 'Appropriate' is dependent upon your gear configuration. *Most* people will never need even close to 30 lbs of lift. In a drysuit and a small single tank, I barely use my wing. As the tank gets larger, so does the amount of air in the wing.

 

[CRDiver]

"Halcyon is an equipment company. GUE is the training organization. They are not the same entity."

You're right, but the same guy runs both. JJ founded Halcyon to be the "Doing It Right" company, and he runs GUE, which is all about "Doing It Right" training. JJ knows all about marketing.


As someone who has dove in nothing but 6.5-7 mil wetsuits and drysuits for around 9 years, having more than 30 pounds of lift is a good idea in many circumstances.

 

[detroit diver]

"Halcyon is an equipment company. GUE is the training organization. They are not the same entity."

You're right, but the same guy runs both. JJ founded Halcyon to be the "Doing It Right" company, and he runs GUE, which is all about "Doing It Right" training. JJ knows all about marketing.


As someone who has dove in nothing but 6.5-7 mil wetsuits and drysuits for around 9 years, having more than 30 pounds of lift is a good idea in many circumstances.

He also sell split fins in his retail store. So what? It IS about marketing when you are a retailer. It would be incredilby stupid for him to only sell into such a small DIR market.

 

[Soggy]

"Halcyon is an equipment company. GUE is the training organization. They are not the same entity."

You're right, but the same guy runs both. JJ founded Halcyon to be the "Doing It Right" company, and he runs GUE, which is all about "Doing It Right" training. JJ knows all about marketing.

What's your point? If it's what I think you're getting at, this has been beaten to death. JJ founded Halcyon to manufacture gear that fits the DIR philosophy. That doesn't mean that all gear that is manufactured by Halcyon is DIR. I certainly don't see a lot of people carrying around the surf shuttle or life raft in their drysuit pockets

As someone who has dove in nothing but 6.5-7 mil wetsuits and drysuits for around 9 years, having more than 30 pounds of lift is a good idea in many circumstances.

Welcome to the club. I've been in a 3mm wetsuit exactly 3 times. Once in a pool and twice in Cancun. Every other dive I've done has been in a drysuit or 7mm wetsuit. I dive the 36# wing. I'd get along just fine with a 27# wing, too. Like I said...appropriate amount of lift. No one ever said that everything stated in the Fundies book is gospel. It's not like a GUE student's bible or anything, but it is a good place to get people to consider alternative ways of thinking about diving and gear.

Under what circumstances do you think more than 30# of lift is necessary, btw? I'm not disagreeing, but I'm interested in your rationale.

 

[sulaiman]

On my singles rig I usually dive either an E8 119 or a Faber LP95. The trilam suit doesn't add buoyancy ... but the air required to keep the undergarment warm does. Even though I use minimal air in the suit, what I do use cannot be considered any less buoyant at depth than on the surface, since you have to add air to the suit as you descend in order to maintain adequate loft for warmth. I weigh roughly 250 lbs (without my scuba gear), and wear 18 lbs on a weight belt.

In theory, Spectre's thinking makes sense. I'm a big believer in experimentation and empirical data, however. In my case, the 30# Venture wing simply wasn't adequate to keep my head above water (when fully inflated) on those long surface swims. The 45# Oxycheq is.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

hello there
my friend you are overweighted
im 250 lbs and i use 10lbs whith 0.5 skin suit
try to loss some led from your weight belt

thanks

 

[Soggy]

hello there
my friend you are overweighted
im 250 lbs and i use 10lbs whith 0.5 skin suit
try to loss some led from your weight belt

thanks

Actually, I think it's you who are overweighted...

NWGrateful diver is diving a trilam drysuit in Washington State.