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daywoo62

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Any opinions on going with a pony bottle rather then an octopus?
I was certified last September with my girlfriend and am slowly accumulating equipment over the winter. Can't wait to get in the water. The NorthEast is cold here as you all know. Back to my question octo,air2, or pony bottle?
 
Using a pony bottle to replace a backup regulator is a bad idea - it's not integrated into your regulator, so you might be tempted to leave it behind on some dives, whereas the octopus or an integrated backup/inflator cannot be left behind, or you use it, and it's empty so you leave it behind, or it's only 6cf, so there's not enough air to deal with the situation, or you're travelling on a plane and can't take it, or you accidently leave it at home, etc. They have their place for some divers, but NOT as a replacement for a working backup regulator.

The three realistic options you have are:

1. Traditional octopus for your buddy, which you donate
2. Integrated backup/inflator for yourself, donating the reg from the mouth
3. Backup regulator on a necklace for yourself, donating the reg from the mouth

Personally I use option 3. All three methods are used by users on this board.
 
Like Ben said, Back up reg around neck with necklace on a 22-24"hose. Primary reg. with a long hose(7 ft.) that you donate in air sharing situations. There is tons of info about this if you do a search.
 
daywoo62 once bubbled...
Any opinions on going with a pony bottle rather then an octopus?

Go with both. Pony's arent as big of a deal as advertising makes them.

Think of the value this way. Your trapped in a wreck waiting for help and your primary reg fails. Would it be better to switch to a 13cu pony or your octopus with an 80cu tank?

The other thing is there are so many equipment configuration differences out there that most divers in an out of air situation will grab the reg from your mouth. Leaving you with the pony bottle. I dont know about you but i sure wouldnt want to get stuck with the smaller air supply!
 
Quest once bubbled...


Go with both. Pony's arent as big of a deal as advertising makes them.

Think of the value this way. Your trapped in a wreck waiting for help and your primary reg fails. Would it be better to switch to a 13cu pony or your octopus with an 80cu tank?

The other thing is there are so many equipment configuration differences out there that most divers in an out of air situation will grab the reg from your mouth. Leaving you with the pony bottle. I dont know about you but i sure wouldnt want to get stuck with the smaller air supply!

With all due respect, I think this is terrible advice.

Your obviously entitled to your opinion and your list of certs is impressive, but this piece of advice just seems like an attempt to fix a training problem with a piece of gear.

Trapped in a wreck waiting for help? Diving with buddies who are so poorly informed about your gear configuration that they just grab the reg in your mouth?

Get the octopus, per Scubaroo's suggestion. Take the money you would otherwise spend on a pony and put it toward actual diving experience or another class.

MHO.
 
King Kong Matt once bubbled...


but this piece of advice just seems like an attempt to fix a training problem with a piece of gear.

Diving with buddies who are so poorly informed about your gear configuration that they just grab the reg in your mouth?

MHO.

First off:

Perhaps i read his posting incorrectly. He is a recreational diver who is deciding between two solutions (pony or octopus) not asking for an alternate solution.

Now if he was looking for advice other than a decision between those two common recreational solutions then i would tell him something like.

Toss the idea of a pony bottle, go with at a minimum of a single low pressure steel tank with H valve, have your primary long hose reg mounted on one outlet and your pressure guage with backup reg (secured around your neck with surgical tubing) on the other outlet.

In an out of air-sharing emergency situation donate the long hose second stage primary regulator from your mouth to the diver and put your backup second stage regulator in your mouth.

Also known as the Hogarthian System.

Second off:

The days of diving with buddies is slowly coming to an end! And if you are diving with a buddy then who says the person out of air is going to be your buddy? Maybe its another passer by diver!

Third off:

Yes, its a fact that equipment configurations vary from diver to diver. A good example is what the initial writer of this thread indicated. That he was looking to go either with an octo or a pony tank. Right there is a difference.

Some backup regs are located in pockets, others on a clip attached to a shoulder strap. Some located on the left side while others on the right side of the divers body. Some are integrated with the LP inflator on the BC while others are a small tank connected to a belt, harness or primary tank.

There are major considerable differences in peoples equipment configurations these days. Sure Padi and YMCA and some of the large dive organizations try to standardize this practice. But, the fact is there are differences from the individual diver all the way up to the equipment manufacturers.

But, in most recorded dive emergency cases the out of air diver went for the regulator in the other divers mouth rather than searching for the octopus or other backup system!

Its simply the easiest to find on the diver after swimming a distance while out of air in a gasping panicing situation.

Fourth Off:

Doesnt it make perfect sense to donate a fully functioning regulator to the person who most needs it? Doesnt it make sense that the person who is in a panic situation might need that extra bit of breathing ease that better quality primary regs tend to provide over the cheaper octopuses that most divers tend to buy? (though i will say that i am a firm believe in the backup reg being of equal high quality as your primary reg, but most people dont have money to invest in that extra quality)

There are tons of other pro's to donating yoru primary reg. You will learn more about how the pro's outweight the con's when you learn about the Hogarthian System.

Fifth Off:

Do you really want to confuse a recreational diver with technical diving concepts and have them invest in more expensive, yet safer more reliable, equipment configurations without proper training in it first!

A long hose as a primary regulator is very confusing to an untrained or unexperienced diver. Why else do you think recreational dive organizations dont cover this equipment setuo until you start getting into more advance diving? Its because the traditional setup is easier to comprehend though in my opinion its not the safest or more efficient of the two choices.
 
Two days in a row with someone jumping in with both feet into a massive storm of controversy.

Quest once bubbled...


Second off:

The days of diving with buddies is slowly coming to an end! And if you are diving with a buddy then who says the person out of air is going to be your buddy? Maybe its another passer by diver!

Fifth Off:

Do you really want to confuse a recreational diver with technical diving concepts and have them invest in more expensive, yet safer more reliable, equipment configurations without proper training in it first!

A long hose as a primary regulator is very confusing to an untrained or unexperienced diver. Why else do you think recreational dive organizations dont cover this equipment setuo until you start getting into more advance diving? Its because the traditional setup is easier to comprehend though in my opinion its not the safest or more efficient of the two choices.

Great... another instructor who thinks that students are complete idiots who can't possible handle the "complexities" of getting it right the first time. And, in case you haven't been paying attention, buddy skills are being stressed more and more today to avoid the screw-ups you mentioned.
 
daywoo62 once bubbled...
Any opinions on going with a pony bottle rather then an octopus?
Between the two... Octopus... without a doubt. But if you put your Octo on a 40" hose you can breath it as your primary second stage.

Put your other second stage on a bungee necklace so that it rests on your chest under your chin where it will be easy to reach. Call this regulator your backup.

Here is an
example set up with a backplate & wing instead of a BCD.
 
Quest once bubbled...
A long hose as a primary regulator is very confusing to an untrained or unexperienced diver. Why else do you think recreational dive organizations dont cover this equipment setuo until you start getting into more advance diving? Its because the traditional setup is easier to comprehend though in my opinion its not the safest or more efficient of the two choices.
Another MechDiver moment - horsepucky.

Took my fiancee about 2 second to comprehend the benefits of the long hose when I demonstrated it to her in the house just by holding the first stage behind my head in my left hand, and pretending to donate the primary with my right hand. At the time she only had basic open water, and had never dived with anything other than a traditional octopus. She said she could see the benefit in the longer hose, and understood the reasoning behind giving the recipient a guaranteed working regulator. Anyone that can't comprehend that shouldn't be allowed near scuba gear to begin with.

Geez, I understood it by reading it on ScubaBoard after a career total of 10 dives :)

Until PADI begins teaching the long hose primary / necklaced backup configuration in basic Open Water classes (just being hypothetical), regulator manufacturers will continue to supply traditional short hoses on the second stage.
 
bwerb once bubbled...
Two days in a row with someone jumping in with both feet into a massive storm of controversy.



Great... another instructor who thinks that students are complete idiots who can't possible handle the "complexities" of getting it right the first time. And, in case you haven't been paying attention, buddy skills are being stressed more and more today to avoid the screw-ups you mentioned.

So what your saying is first time open water divers, who have enough trouble dealing with buoyancy control and using more simplistic diving systems, wouldnt have any trouble using an inverted twin manifold dual outlet dive rig?

Or wouldnt run into entanglements using a 7ft or 8ft longhose as their primary regulator?

Or dont have enough trouble trying to operate a single valve let alone a double with isolation valve?

There are legitimate reasons why most cave and technical diving manuals dont contain the visual instructions that recreational dive manuals contain. In fact most cave and technical dive manuals usually contain outlines and require the instructors to cover this specialized training during their class.

It prevents what you refer to as "capable students" from being another statistic which only serves to create additional regulations for us experienced divers!

But, perhaps this is only realized by divers who have had to recover the bodies of inexperienced divers who have made simple but fatal mistakes. There is nothing more devastating than to have to perform 30min of deco during a tech dive while the body of a friend floats along the sand below waiting to be recovered.

As for Buddy systems growing in popularity. Well open your eyes and you will see diving agencies working on "solo diver" programs and most organizations are now teaching "self-efficiency' rather than the traditional "dependancy" teachings of buddy systems. Something technical and cave divers have known for a long time.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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