New Zeagle Bail-out System

[Adobo]

Totally agree. But, again, what about when you can't find your buddy, he/she is too far away, or he/she panics and is of no help?

This is kind of where I am coming from. It seems like a band aid for a hatchet wound. Going back to the PADI way of doing things (let's keep our good DIR friends out of this), the distance you keep from your buddy will depend on many factors. Regardless, you should always be close enough to your buddy to request assistance should it be needed. If at any point, you get separated from your buddy, there is a buddy separation protocol. Look around for a minute, etc. You and your buddy need to always be mindful of each other so as to avoid situations where you are virtually diving solo - a discipline that requires different training and equipment.

If your buddy is does not reciprocate your commitment to buddy diving or is in fact a weak buddy(i.e. lack of composure in difficult sitations), have you not made a poor choice in choosing one of the most important pieces of gear you will ever pick out?

 

[Adobo]

Why do we have to go thru the same debate EVERY time anything is posted about small pony bottles?
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Are all new divers going to shell out $400+ on a fully redundant system & then have to pay for 2 more regs & another cylinder to get inspected every year? - - - NO
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Is this system better than a good buddy? - - - NO
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Is this system ideal for 100'+? - - -NO
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If someone practices w/ this system, is it MUCH better to have this as a backup than having nothing? - - - for me, YES


Joe

Joe,

Unlike many of the folks in these forums, I don't have the experience/knowledge to figure everything out myself. I'm just trying to get a better understanding so I'd appreciate a little slack.

 

[Sharky1948]

This is kind of where I am coming from. It seems like a band aid for a hatchet wound. Going back to the PADI way of doing things (let's keep our good DIR friends out of this), the distance you keep from your buddy will depend on many factors. Regardless, you should always be close enough to your buddy to request assistance should it be needed. If at any point, you get separated from your buddy, there is a buddy separation protocol. Look around for a minute, etc. You and your buddy need to always be mindful of each other so as to avoid situations where you are virtually diving solo - a discipline that requires different training and equipment.

If your buddy is does not reciprocate your commitment to buddy diving or is in fact a weak buddy(i.e. lack of composure in difficult sitations), have you not made a poor choice in choosing one of the most important pieces of gear you will ever pick out?

Good theory, but...

The reason there are lost buddy procedures is because it happens. What if you have a catastrophic OOG when you've lost your buddy.

Regarding picking a good buddy, sometimes we're paired up with someone we don't know. We can ask all the questions we want, but he/she is still an unknown quantity. If we choose to dive, we are accepting that risk.

The small ponys add a margin of safety. They have value. They are not a substitute for training or procedure. Nor are they a panacea. At the end of the day, they are a personal choice.

Heck, when I started diving we didin't have SPGs, BCDs, octos/backup regs, or even J-valves in many cases. Personally, I welcome technology advances and just try to make intelligent choices.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

....(Are there instructions that come with this thing that tell a diver that the so called bailout is useful at certain depths but not at others? Ex. is it useful at 120 ft if I should have an OOG emergency? Is it useful if normal SAC rate is over 1 cu ft/min? )

I love Zeagle as a company. The regs are top notch. If I was choosing a back inflate BC, it would be a Zeagle. I would think they could come up with a better way to generate more revenue.

Are there instructions that come with any tank that tell you how long it will last?

The guy gave a reference to a spreadsheet that appears to calculate exactly what ascent rate, what max depth and also specifies an optional safety stop depth. What more do you need? A diver must pick a SAC, but if you don't know what yours is, pick one (1.0), pick your desired ascent rate (say 60 fpm) and figure out what size bail out bottle you need. Why ask questions that you can easily answer? Most people will see that a 6 cu-ft bottle will get a diver from 100 feet to the top at a reasonable ascent rate.

If that ain't enough air, then pick a bigger freaking bail-out bottle. Don't attack Zeagal for selling one that is too small for your type of diving. I see the 6 cu-ft bottle as being so small that noone can complain about carrying it and big enough to keep you from drowning at a depth of around 100 feet; if everything goes ok on the ascent.

 

[Agua]

i am new to the diving world and reading this posts made me think, why knock on something that could save your life or the life of another diver. new divers read this and it's kind of scary ,that i have to depend on someone else or just drown..if only the world worked this way lets all hold hands across the world for peace. it's not going to happen, right. not to be funny i am just saying would you go to war with just a riffle? or would you carry a grenade, knife, and extra ammo? i am just posting from the view of a new diver reading this post.

 

[Gil57usa]

Persoanlly I think ponies are a waste of money but getting out of water with a possible DCS hit or without that option safety stop is better than drowning. A 6 cuft bottle is better than nothing for the diver that actually needs it (e.g. the diver that probably shouldn't be in the water in the first place).

Of course, proper gas management and buddy awareness would be a lot cheaper than a pony and if you are doing dives that for some reason absolutly require 100% redundant gas, doubles (either independent or w/ an isolator) would be preferable to a pony.

I have to disagree with you on that. Ponies are not a waste of money. My Fire Dept SCUBA team carries 19 cu.ft. pony bottles as a redundant backup. If in the rare event the first stage craps out, you have a complete system to get you to the surface. I regularly dive doubles with an isolator, but whenever I dive a single tank I strap on the pony. I call it being prepared.

 

[Adobo]

Are there instructions that come with any tank that tell you how long it will last?

The guy gave a reference to a spreadsheet that appears to calculate exactly what ascent rate, what max depth and also specifies an optional safety stop depth. What more do you need? A diver must pick a SAC, but if you don't know what yours is, pick one (1.0), pick your desired ascent rate (say 60 fpm) and figure out what size bail out bottle you need. Why ask questions that you can easily answer? Most people will see that a 6 cu-ft bottle will get a diver from 100 feet to the top at a reasonable ascent rate.

If that ain't enough air, then pick a bigger freaking bail-out bottle. Don't attack Zeagal for selling one that is too small for your type of diving. I see the 6 cu-ft bottle as being so small that noone can complain about carrying it and big enough to keep you from drowning at a depth of around 100 feet; if everything goes ok on the ascent.

Instructo!!!!

Check out the post right after yours. The other newbie is thinking that this is a good alternative to good buddy diving practices. Is this the conclusion you want all newbies coming to? "I'm scared cus I don't trust my buddy will be there but if I have a bail out bottle..."

As someone else said before:
"With a single tank, proper gas management will save you from everything but a first stage failure, a tank neck o-ring and a burst disk. Those 3 failure modes are covered by your aware buddy."

If your buddy sucks, there is a less expensive way to fix that than to bring a 6 cu ft bail out.

That's cool though. Everybody is free to choose how they dive.

P.S. Zeagle's rep posted this info on public forum. While I love Zeagle as a company, I see this product, as I said before, as a band aid to hatchet wound. They may or may not care about my feedback and may or may not agree with my reasons. But a company like Zeagle only gets better by getting all the feedback, not just the good feedback.

 

[PaulSmithTek]

My point is this: buddy awareness and gas planning will make you a better diver, you'll need less gear in the water (e.g. a pony) and you'll be a safer diver. If you are an aware buddy, why would you need a pony? Yes, I've lost my buddy diving Texas's murkey lakes once or twice but the total time thoughout my diving career I've been out of contact with my buddy (excluding intentional solo dives) has probabaly been less that 10 mins. What were the chances I or my buddy would have had a catastrophic air loss during those 10 mins considering I've not had one in hundreds of hours of bottomr time?

With a single tank, proper gas management will save you from everything but a first stage failure, a tank neck o-ring and a burst disk. Those 3 failure modes are covered by your aware buddy. Why have a pony?

First time for everything. Why do commercial divers carry bailouts? for the same reason.

 

[Sharky1948]

as I said before, as a band aid to hatchet wound.

That "band aid" may slow the "bleeding" so that you can get to a "full wound dressing" (surface air.) (Couldn't resist one more post. I'm just trying to get my post count up! )

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Instructo!!!!

Check out the post right after yours. The other newbie is thinking that this is a good alternative to good buddy diving practices. Is this the conclusion you want all newbies coming to? "I'm scared cus I don't trust my buddy will be there but if I have a bail out bottle..."
.

Actually yes! Often, Open water dive instruction is way too abbreviated and the new divers are often an accident waiting to happen, in my opinion. Pair too of these recent graduates of the weekend course and dump them in 60 feet of water alone sounds scary. I wouldn't trust this kind of buddy to save me; so why should the newly certified diver have unwavering faith in him either?

Geting a pony bottle as a back up to a buddy is not a bad option. This tiny little bottle will get a new diver from 60 feet to the surface at a nice slow pace and even give them time for a little safety stop at 15 feet. My 10 yr old son just got certified and the next time we dive, we will begin to train him on how to use the 6 cu-ft pony bottle I have for him. People spend crazy amounts of money for air integrated computers, $500 BC's, god knows how much for a top of the line regulator... etc. etc. a few more hundred for a bailout system seems reasonable to me if you are diving over 30 or 40 feet.

HECK IT MIGHT EVEN GIVE THE NEW DIVER A CHANCE TO RUN OUT OF AIR MORE THAN ONCE IN THEIR LIFE!