New York tourist dies in Cozumel

[Dirty-Dog]

So in other words you think the coroner has no idea what they are doing and just listed whatever he pulled out of a hat as a cause of death? Really? BTW the person who posted that link to the news story was his dive buddy and was there when it happened. You might want to ask them what the official number was as he may have seen or asked what it was.

Please don't try to put words in my mouth. If you can't respond to the things I actually say, I'd prefer that you not respond at all. I can't enforce my preferences, of course, except to say that if this is your method of discussion, I'll simply ignore you in the future.

A cause of death is declared. I ask one thing: based on what. A statement that there was an elevated COHb has been made. That, in and of itself, does not prove the cause of death. Numbers matter. Methods of determining those numbers matter. Lacking that information, Christi's statement that she is not totally convinced that CO poisoning was the cause of death in this case is certainly understandable.

 

[DandyDon]

You bought a CO analyzer.

So if you're giving Cozumel the innocent until proven guilty treatment, that means you're leaving the CO analyzer at home or are you actually taking it with you because you're in fact giving Cozumel the guilty until proven innocent treatment aren't you?

No. Checking your tank air to confirm it is safe to dive is just being careful. It's presumed safe until proven otherwise, but unproven either way until checked.

 

[WSOPFAN]

Please don't try to put words in my mouth. If you can't respond to the things I actually say, I'd prefer that you not respond at all. I can't enforce my preferences, of course, except to say that if this is your method of discussion, I'll simply ignore you in the future.

A cause of death is declared. I ask one thing: based on what. A statement that there was an elevated COHb has been made. That, in and of itself, does not prove the cause of death. Numbers matter. Methods of determining those numbers matter. Lacking that information, Christi's statement that she is not totally convinced that CO poisoning was the cause of death in this case is certainly understandable.

Right that by itself might not prove the cause of death but you failed to mention since you read the thread that the diver had "pink" or "red" skin which is of course indicative of CO poisoning. Also I seriously doubt a professional coroner would conclude a person died of CO poisoning if they merely had minor elevated levels say for instance that of a heavy smoker. You of course are entitled to continue beating your drum of not knowing what exactly the numbers are and I will continue to trust in the fact that the coroner on Cozumel would not make such an unprofessional assumption and believe he reported correctly.

 

[Mike]

A cause of death is declared. I ask one thing: based on what. A statement that there was an elevated COHb has been made. That, in and of itself, does not prove the cause of death. Numbers matter. Methods of determining those numbers matter. Lacking that information, Christi's statement that she is not totally convinced that CO poisoning was the cause of death in this case is certainly understandable.

Isn't the official cause of death whatever the coroner reports it as? Doesn't he do the discovery, measures the COHb levels and then based on those numbers he declared the cause of death CO poisoning? So while you'd like to know the numbers to verify the coroners work, I don't think they will be available. The assumption is he measured, he found the levels as high as you'd expect them yourself to be and they indicated CO poisoning based on what they were and he therefore made the determination.

The alternative is the Coroner just made a declaration it was CO poisoning based something less than meaningful and we will never know. That's why I've questioned before just how complete are these dive death autopsys?

 

[Thalassamania]

So in other words you think the coroner has no idea what they are doing and just listed whatever he pulled out of a hat as a cause of death? Really? BTW the person who posted that link to the news story was his dive buddy and was there when it happened. You might want to ask them what the official number was as he may have seen or asked what it was.

I have no idea who the coroner in Coz is or what his or her qualifications might be. I would, for example, not trust anything coming out of the New Orleans coroner up until a year or so ago.

Right that by itself might not prove the cause of death but you failed to mention since you read the thread that the diver had "pink" or "red" skin which is of course indicative of CO poisoning. Also I seriously doubt a professional coroner would conclude a person died of CO poisoning if they merely had minor elevated levels say for instance that of a heavy smoker. You of course are entitled to continue beating your drum of not knowing what exactly the numbers are and I will continue to trust in the fact that the coroner on Cozumel would not make such an unprofessional assumption and believe he reported correctly.

Have you any indication that the Cozumel coroner is what we might consider, "a professional?"

 

[Dive-aholic]

Just for clarification sake:

The 6 CO poisonings a couple of years ago were at one resort who was filling their own tanks. These tanks were not filled by the central fill station that fills most ops tanks here.

Thanks to Dave Dillehay, Meridiano, the central fill station that does fill most ops tanks here now has inline CO monitors.

Obviously tanks in Playa del Carmen tanks are not filled in Cozumel so really have absolutely nothing to do with Cozumel incidents of diver death or CO poisoning here.

As has been mentioned, a small pocket CO monitor is not an accurate gauge of the CO in a tank for recreational diving purposes.

So Analox is simply making money off of analyzers that are worthless??

I am still not convinced that the cause of death of the Cave Diver was CO poisoning.

Interesting. So you disagree with the findings of the coroner??

Not only are there many conflicting reports, but no one else with tanks from the same fill station at the same time had a problem.

What conflicting reports? The tainted tank was a nitrox tank. Most of the tanks that go out of the fill station each day are air not nitrox.

Additionally, there are reports that his dive buddies claim that the diver had complained of not feeling well the day before or that morning, but followed through with the dive.

Not sure where you heard this but it is absolutely not true. At no time did Brendan complain of not feeling well. Please stop spreading BS rumors.

Of course it is all hearsay, but it is hearsay from both sides. Only the Dr.'s performing the autopsy actually know!

And the doctor that performed the autopsy found carboxyhemoglobin levels in Brendan's blood that were lethal.

Elevated meaning what? Carboxyhemoglobin can be elevated for a number of reasons. Was he a smoker? Did he have some underlying inflammatory process? Any of the many issues that can cause hemolysis?

I've not followed the cave diver thread, but merely stating that he had an elevated carboxyhemoglobin is not proof that he died from CO toxicity.

Brendan was not a smoker. He did not have any inflammatory process. The coroner did find a lethal level of carboxyhemoglobin in his blood, not just an elevated level. The coroner closed the case with the determination that Brendan died from carbon monoxide poisoning. That seems like pretty good proof.

 

[Karibelle]

You bought a CO analyzer.


So if you're giving Cozumel the innocent until proven guilty treatment, that means you're leaving the CO analyzer at home or are you actually taking it with you because you're in fact giving Cozumel the guilty until proven innocent treatment aren't you?

Not really. I liken it to your "trust but verify" statement. The fact that I have one doesn't mean I think that the fellow in this incident had bad gas. The fact that I'm not leaping to conclusions about what happened in this case doesn't mean I'm not also conservative with my own safety.

kari

 

[Ayisha]

Why is taking heed of the results of a coroner's report "leaping to conclusions"? Why is there so much questioning and denial of autopsy results or the qualifications of a coroner in the Quintana Roo area when we don't see such questioning or denial of coroner's reports in other places?

We're being led in circles instead of focusing on what happened and how, what can be done and where we go from here...

 

[swamp diver]

Just for clarification sake:
As has been mentioned, a small pocket CO monitor is not an accurate gauge of the CO in a tank for recreational diving purposes.

Christi you are spreading misinformation with this statement. Have you read the manufacturers' specifications for the portable CO detectors available from BW Technologies (now owned by Honeywell), RaeSystems, Draeger, C-Squared, or Analox?

The portable CO detectors available from these companies are used by industrial hygienists, miners, fire fighters, hazmat workers on a daily basis and are found routinely in our military's tanks, aircraft, and submarines. These are the identical units to the ones we use to check our recreational dive gas.

The RaeSystem's ToxiRae 3, the Analox CO EII and CO Clear, the BW Tech Gas Alert Extreme, and the C-Squared CO monitor all have a reported resolution and minimum level of detection of 1 ppm CO. For recreational diving we are interested in concentrations in the 1 to 10 ppm range so any of these units will be completely satisfactory for the purpose of identifying which tanks are possibly contaminated.

I personally have all of the units in the list above except the one from C-Squared (= Oxycheq) and have verified their reliability (accuracy and precision) using Air Liquide's Calgaz which is NIST traceable and was re-analyzed by a local accredited laboratory using a GC/FID to confirm concentrations. I can assure you that contrary to your statement above all of these units are very accurate with the only proviso that they must be kept calibrated as per the manufacturer's recommendation (~ every 6 months).

Now that PADI has dropped the requirement for their shops and resorts to test the dive air on a quarterly basis the requirement to do so falls to the local jurisdiction having authority. In Mexico this means there are no compressed breathing air standards which require a shop or resort to test their compressed air quality. As such we are now in an era, particularly when in the tropics, where the individual diver is ultimately responsible for his or her own breathing gas quality which means carrying a portable CO detector and analyzing each and every tank prior to use much as we have been trained to do with nitrox.

It is unfortunate that this is the current reality in the recreational dive industry but until that situation changes one diver's words who was severely injured by CO poisoning comes to mind.

"I dove for 35 years before I got a contaminated gas fill. I could neither smell nor taste anything wrong with it. It very nearly killed me. If you suspect you have a bad gas fill, be afraid, be very afraid. You can be like me; pay your money and take your chances or you could get yourself a hand held carbon monoxide monitor. They aren't very expensive. It's the best money I never spent." (Decostop.com thread "Erroneous Assumptions" May 15,2011)

 

[WSOPFAN]

November 14 .- COZUMEL diving houses, free of guilt before the Public Ministry of Common Law (MPFC) for the death of two foreigners in recent days, when scuba divers who were killed, necropsies revealed that the death of the two people was by asphyxiation by drowning and decompression.

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