New Fast-Attack Nuclear Submarines to be Named Arizona and Oklahoma

[HalcyonDaze]

Kind of arguable what Shinano was supposed to be; her construction was initially paused in December 1941 (about 18 months into her construction) because the IJN felt a) she would not be ready until 1945 anyway and b) with Pearl Harbor and the destruction of Force Z in Malaysian waters some were seeing the writing on the wall for battleships. The IJN also wanted to free up her drydock for other work, but first they would have to either scrap what was already built or get the hull to the point where it could be floated out. They chose the latter. Then Midway left the IJN four carrier hulls down and the decision was made to convert her to a carrier (at this point she was about 45% complete and some of the battleship-specific elements such as the armor scheme and forward main battery barbettes were in place).

Shinano was not supposed to be a frontline asset; as planned she was supposed to only carry an active air group of about 40 aircraft while holding 120 aircraft in storage. She would hang back behind the strike force (at this point the IJN was hurriedly trying to build the Unryu-class, which were essentially wartime efficency versions of the prewar Hiryu), supplying them or island bases with fresh aircraft and taking on damaged aircraft for repairs. It's worth noting that of the four major carrier battles of 1942 the IJN arguably "won" two of them in terms of carriers sunk (Coral Sea and Santa Cruz), but their air wings were so severely degraded in the process that they had to cede the field. As such, her top speed was only projected to be 27 knots, as opposed to the intended 32-34 knot speeds of the Unryu-class. She was on track for completion in April 1945, but this was rushed after the fall of the Marianas in June 1944 put Japan in range of strategic bombers. Trying to meet an October 1944 launch deadline led to shoddy and incomplete work, which didn't pass the unscheduled flooding test administered by USS Archerfish 10 days after commissioning.


As far as her being a "supercarrier," I'd argue against that. Besides her intended role being as more of an auxiliary unit, ~90 aircraft was about the practical limit for what one carrier could effectively manage in terms of flight ops and control (which was a problem the USN's Midway-class ships were confronted with, before larger and jet-propelled aircraft reduced their theoretical maximum air wings to 60-75 aircraft).

 

[Jared0425]

Kind of arguable what Shinano was supposed to be; her construction was initially paused in December 1941 (about 18 months into her construction) because the IJN felt a) she would not be ready until 1945 anyway and b) with Pearl Harbor and the destruction of Force Z in Malaysian waters some were seeing the writing on the wall for battleships. The IJN also wanted to free up her drydock for other work, but first they would have to either scrap what was already built or get the hull to the point where it could be floated out. They chose the latter. Then Midway left the IJN four carrier hulls down and the decision was made to convert her to a carrier (at this point she was about 45% complete and some of the battleship-specific elements such as the armor scheme and forward main battery barbettes were in place).

Shinano was not supposed to be a frontline asset; as planned she was supposed to only carry an active air group of about 40 aircraft while holding 120 aircraft in storage. She would hang back behind the strike force (at this point the IJN was hurriedly trying to build the Unryu-class, which were essentially wartime efficency versions of the prewar Hiryu), supplying them or island bases with fresh aircraft and taking on damaged aircraft for repairs. It's worth noting that of the four major carrier battles of 1942 the IJN arguably "won" two of them in terms of carriers sunk (Coral Sea and Santa Cruz), but their air wings were so severely degraded in the process that they had to cede the field. As such, her top speed was only projected to be 27 knots, as opposed to the intended 32-34 knot speeds of the Unryu-class. She was on track for completion in April 1945, but this was rushed after the fall of the Marianas in June 1944 put Japan in range of strategic bombers. Trying to meet an October 1944 launch deadline led to shoddy and incomplete work, which didn't pass the unscheduled flooding test administered by USS Archerfish 10 days after commissioning.


As far as her being a "supercarrier," I'd argue against that. Besides her intended role being as more of an auxiliary unit, ~90 aircraft was about the practical limit for what one carrier could effectively manage in terms of flight ops and control (which was a problem the USN's Midway-class ships were confronted with, before larger and jet-propelled aircraft reduced their theoretical maximum air wings to 60-75 aircraft).

I believe that the reason why she has been referred to the world's first supercarrier (WW2 in Color) is that she had a larger aircraft capacity than any other Japanese aircraft carrier and that she was the heaviest carrier until the Midway/ Forrstal rebuild or Kitty Hawk.

 

[HalcyonDaze]

I believe that the reason why she has been referred to the world's first supercarrier (WW2 in Color) is that she had a larger aircraft capacity than any other Japanese aircraft carrier and that she was the heaviest carrier until the Midway/ Forrstal rebuild or Kitty Hawk.

True, which brings into question what the line is for a "supercarrier." The first use of that term I'm aware of was by the New York Times in 1938 to describe the then-new HMS Ark Royal as such; at ~27,000 tons full load and with a capacity for ~72 aircraft she was comparable to her nearest USN and IJN contemporaries (the Yorktown class, Soryu, and Hiryu).

The Midway-class were essentially the end product of following an opposite fork to that taken with the Essex-class (i.e., "The Brits seem to be onto something with armoring the flight deck, let's try that), much as the Montana-class battleship design was an evolution of selecting for firepower and armor as opposed to the Iowa-class speed demons. The Midway-class was a bit of a bodge; the hangar and armored flight deck were built onto the hull as superstructure like all previous USN carriers, which led to problems with low freeboard and handling in rough seas throughout their lives. Due to the sheer size of the Forrestal-class, they had to be built with the hangar and flight deck integrated as part of the hull (as with the WWII British armored-deck carriers), which made them far better ships (despite some early-iteration quirks that were addressed in the subsequent Kitty Hawk design).

My personal opinion is to leave the Forrestal-class as the first supercarriers, because a) they really seem to embody the shift from the carrier as a fleet unit operating in groups to the single-ship centerpiece of a task force, b) they introduced many of the essential design features of a modern supercarrier such as having all the elevators on the deck edge, and c) back in the 1950s they essentially set the bar for aircraft capacity. By the 1960s some naval aircraft had grown too large to operate off the Midway-class (the RA-5C Vigilante, F-14 Tomcat, or S-3 Viking weren't operated by them); by contrast up until the end of their service lives the Forrestal-class were still capable of not only operating the heaviest carrier aircraft in the inventory but landing and launching oversized oddballs like C-130 transports or U-2 recon aircraft. The reason modern supercarriers have such a long life is because they're big enough to handle another 50 years of aircraft development, which was really a revolution.

 

[Akimbo]

I don't know enough to judge the accuracy of this video but you may find it interesting:

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[Wookie]

I don't know enough to judge the accuracy of this video but you may find it interesting:

​

I haven't watched the video yet, but I've spent millions and millions getting Littoral Combat ships in good enough shape to limp in to home port.

Too small of a crew is the main contributor.

Chinese materials of construction doesn't help.

 

[Jared0425]

I haven't watched the video yet, but I've spent millions and millions getting Littoral Combat ships in good enough shape to limp in to home port.

Too small of a crew is the main contributor.

Chinese materials of construction doesn't help.

Still can't get over the embarrassment of being part of the commissioning ceremony in Detroit and 2 weeks later she's stuck in the St. Lawrence where she has to layup for the winter in Montreal because of ice. Had to tow her to Maine in February. At least we got a Ohio class sub bearing my state's name. Even then, it's Ohio...

 

[Jared0425]

I am in temporary possession of this model: The USS Michigan/ Wolverine

This ship was the first iron hulled warship ever built for the US Navy in 1842-43. She was the most powerful warship ever launched on the Great Lakes (the 1st rate USS New Orleans was not completed). Due to the limitations of the Rush-Bagot treaty, she was not allowed to carry her full armament while patrolling the lakes. The picture above is her pre-civil war armament.

After the War of Southern Independence, she was painted white and was eventually equipped with the Navy's first breech loaded rifle (cannon) and equipped with the first water borne use of a Gatling Gun.

She would serve until 1922 making her the second oldest ship in the Navy after the USS Constitution and predating the rebuilt Constellation. The reason for her retirement was that she suffered her first engine failure and it could no longer be replaced or rebuilt. She sat in layup in hopes of museum preservation until 1948 when she had to be cut up for scrap as she began to collapse in on herself. 106 years after her keel was laid.

Her bow was cut off and still survives as a display in Ohio.

 

[Bob DBF]

She was the most powerful warship ever launched on the Great Lakes

I'd contend that Manitowoc Shipbuilding Company built a few more powerful, but that was much later.

 

[Jared0425]

I'd contend that Manitowoc Shipbuilding Company built a few more powerful, but that was much later.

I should correct my statement to the most powerful ship launched for lake service. The Gato's and Balao's remain the most powerful ships built on the lake.

 

[HalcyonDaze]

Back to sub topics, the USN has released the report on the grounding of USS Connecticut (SSN-22), with redactions.

FOIA Reading Room — U.S. Pacific Fleet

www.cpf.navy.mil

Navy Releases Report On Submarine USS Connecticut's Underwater Crash

The Navy says preventable missteps by multiple personnel led to Connecticut hitting an underwater seamount, causing extensive damage.

www.thedrive.com