New diver - questions and thoughts on regulator setup

[uncfnp]

Now, can we please table this silly debate, and get back to discussing regulators.

Hmmm. Haven't been on SB long have you?

 

[BoltSnap]

Now, can we please table this silly debate, and get back to discussing regulators.

SB wouldn't be what it is now if it weren't for these "silly" debates. This is what makes it so much fun and attractive, so relax and learn to enjoy it or, at least, live with it

 

[buddhasummer]

You want silly debates ask about Air2 or split fins, you ain't seen nothing yet. It's hard to get more than three people to agree on something so you can imagine with SBs vast membership how much more difficult it can be. Not to mention that the anonymity of a keyboard makes some more inclined to share their opinions in ways not often accepted or tolerated in face to face interactions. The "debate" in this thread has been rather tame.

 

[Centrals]

Can't agreed more.

In PADI, we were taught with the Octo under our right arm and sharing our Octo.

Long hose set up from what I've seen so far are mostly for tech divers which have a different set of drill as their training that we PADI divers may not be familiar with.

Are you really sure PADI designated "under right arm" for the Octo? You never heard the "triangle"? Octo below the chin is right at the apex of the "triangle"!
PADI is NOT the only training agency in the world. Have you ever dived with other divers from different agency?
I can donate my primary 2nd stage(long hose) to anyone within couple of seconds. How long would it take you to donate your Octo to a diver in distress?

 

[Tbar]

Ah ok, sorry, I think I get your meaning, are you're saying that due to lack of knowledge/experience he may put himself at risk? Not explaining set up with buddy/DM before dive etc?

That is the point. But more particularly to the rescue of an unconscious diver and the need to remove gear whilst in the water.

Please explain how diving with a long hose and BP/W is problematic for a rescue.

Lack of experience for the person enacting the rescue - see comment below.

Tbar, how can a long hose with heavy back plate be problematic? Don't mean to be a dick but I'm just not seeing it, it's two hoses, weight on your back and a harness without quick disconnects. If a buddy or DM can't understand the set up after a 1 minute conversation then I'm not sure I want to buddy with them. It's just not that hard.

It is easy to understand the set-up, and with some practice and a process not that difficult to remove. But in refresh sessions I have seen gear removed and the hose still around neck and the BPW go to the bottom. One could say there should be more air in the wing, but when trying to remove a harness without quick release if the wing is inflated this tightens the harness. Hence for buoyancy the dry-suit is used. This is in pool sessions, try this in rough open water with a genuine emergency. I haven't seen anyone who can in a timely fashion remove a BPW without some practice and preferably a process, start at the head and move down coming out from the middle and clearing all items.

Their divemasters must be really stupid and incompetent since they can't figure out how to handle longer hoses and BPW rigs. BUT, they are PADI trained so that is understandable.

I said "I do not know many dive masters who have actually trained at rescuing differing configs." Not being trained and experienced increases the inherent risk, we train to help manage down the risk.

I am a DM and NAUI trained...

In my group of divers we do actually practice and refresh our rescue skills. We have a mix of divers that includes doubles, side-mount, rebreather and 'conventional' set-ups. We practice on all configurations.

What is clear when we do refresh is that variation is rigs pose challenges in removal of gear on the surface. Those without experience in a particular config take a lot longer or do not follow the best sequence. Stressed divers work best when following trained processes/steps varying the set-up increases the need to problem solve. Hence why we do refresh with different gear. But I do not see this as the norm.

If we just go with what PADI teaches, the diving world will be a very small limited world. You are also implying that if new technology or a better way to do things comes along, one can't use it until "PADI" approves it. If so, we wouldn't be using NITROX today for example.

I am not sure how what infers I am not supportive of new technology! If a diver is using some this that others are not aware of then there is a change in risk and the buddy pair and diver master/leader need to have a common understanding risks and responses.

I just came here for some different opinions on regulator setups, not to start a flame war.
Assuming that a 40" hose on a primary will automatically kill me or my buddy is closed minded. I'm more than happy to educate my buddy and/or DM about which hose is my primary and which is for backup. If they don't understand that in about 60 seconds, then they're not someone I want to dive with.

Now, can we please table this silly debate, and get back to discussing regulators.

No flame war here just an open discussion. You did pose a proposition regarding the length of hose and I gave you some comment based on real world experience and observation.

The overall advice in this forum tends to revolve around BRAND or regulator or hose length. Neither of which is a serious life-safety decision.

I can't see how a 40" hose on a primary will automatically kill you, and I didn't say it would! My comments also are not directed at OOA but rescue. Have you done your rescue course yet?

 

[Centrals]

One could say there should be more air in the wing, but when trying to remove a harness without quick release if the wing is inflated this tightens the harness.

Even a fully inflated wing would have no impact on the harness!
I can exit my fully inflated wing(without quick release buckle), single or double, without any difficulty.

---------- Post added November 3rd, 2015 at 09:12 AM ----------

Now, can we get back to discussing regulators.

Apeks.
1st stage:
DS4 is good enough but if you have more cash to burn then FSR with 5th port would be better for routing.
2nd stage:
50 is slightly better than the 40 because of the adjusting screw.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

One of the biggest mistakes I see in rescue classes are divers in all the same gear. The last class I taught we had single tank jackets, single tank bpw's, divers in dry suits and wetsuits, and in sidemount. Getting a diver out of a bpw and long hose is actually faster and easier. You just cut the harness. A trilobite will zip through it like a hot knife through butter. I set up my harness to be cut off by the students. A rescue diver or any dive pro should not have a problem with any open circuit configuration. If they do that's a problem.

 

[timz]

Are you really sure PADI designated "under right arm" for the Octo? You never heard the "triangle"? Octo below the chin is right at the apex of the "triangle"!
PADI is NOT the only training agency in the world. Have you ever dived with other divers from different agency?
I can donate my primary 2nd stage(long hose) to anyone within couple of seconds. How long would it take you to donate your Octo to a diver in distress?

I mean the octo hose.

And i know there is alot more institution than just PADI. But i al.not sure if u've read that the OP stated he was PADI trained too...

 

[Centrals]

I mean the octo hose.

And i know there is alot more institution than just PADI. But i al.not sure if u've read that the OP stated he was PADI trained too...

I am also PADI trained but moved on! The octo should be within the "triangle" if I remember correctly.
I wonder what is PADI position on the "left hand" 2nd stage ie. the hose comes from the left?

 

[buddhasummer]

One of the biggest mistakes I see in rescue classes are divers in all the same gear. The last class I taught we had single tank jackets, single tank bpw's, divers in dry suits and wetsuits, and in sidemount. Getting a diver out of a bpw and long hose is actually faster and easier. You just cut the harness. A trilobite will zip through it like a hot knife through butter. I set up my harness to be cut off by the students. A rescue diver or any dive pro should not have a problem with any open circuit configuration. If they do that's a problem.

Jim as a,ways I agree with you but with exception in this post. I too tell insta buddies etc in an emergency just cut me out if you need to. I disagree with the trilobite part, I've found them not overly effective cutting wet webbing. I now carry shears on my harness.

Tbar, when you say hose still around the neck I'm assuming you're referring to the bungee, that being the case I'd question how the bungee was tied/attached etc. there is no way my bungee would stay attached to regulator if my plate was descending, it simply would not support that weight. My bungee is tied/attached in such a manner as to come off reg with a modicum of force.

What does one do when diving with insta buddies who will likely have no experience with a BP? I don't mean to be rude but I think you're making this out to appear harder than it is. Sure additional things need to be taken into consideration, nothing that a couple of minutes explanation can't fix, but it's just not that difficult. I've seen BCs with various types of integrated weight pockets, BCs with strange inflate mechanisms, this is why one does a buddy check etc to ensure both parties have at least some idea of what to do in an emergency. Reality is that the majority of divers especially those encountered vacation diving are probably not going to be of much help anyway regardless of equipment. Because of this I try to ensure as much as is possible that I and my insta buddy don't end up in an emergency situation. Cheers.