New Divemaster air consumption

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You mention diving with a new DM and being okay with it when they do not have much experience. Was that when you had 100 dives, 200, 300, more? I have less than 20. I do not believe it would be the same situation for me as it is for you. I am sure it is okay when you have a lot of experience. It is not okay when you do not and you are paying for the DM having that experience. How can I count on a DM to help if they do not have the experience? I understand why he wants to be a DM. If he is going to be a good DM, then I expect him to understand why I am not comfortable diving with him.
I agreed with your earlier post. It's nothing personal against the OP, it's really the shop's fault. OP is a relatively new, but highly enthusiastic diver, and I don't fault him for wanting to go far quickly.

However, as a customer, there are always questions around whether you're getting what you think you're paying for. Dive shops who hire instructors, DMs, or guides .... essentially people in roles where they may need to look out for the safety and wellbeing of other divers, needs to ensure those divers have adequate training and experience for that role. This includes being able to provide a good customer experience, but also the ability to handle a scenario like a newbie diver who screws up due to limited training or experience.

If I was running a dive-business, the bare-minimum I'd expect is every diver to be trained/cert in Rescue. However, that must also have current/active knowledge of what to do in common Rescue scenarios. Of course a shop can always offer that training to an employee or potential employee for free or at a significantly reduced rate.

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With all of that out of the way, a little "secret" of the dive-industry is that you, the diver, should always act as if you are the #1 person responsible for your own safety at all times. Sure, the dive-shop may be liable from a legal sense. Sure, there are buddy-diving standards (which buddies often ignore). However, if you do want to be safe, the only person who can really ensure that is you.

Two inexperienced or bad buddy divers may be able to help each other out in an emergency, or may be a liability to each other. Imagine two dive-buddies who don't monitor their air, and run out at about the same time. Alternatively, one diver runs out of air, panics, air-shares, but in a panicked state burns through the other divers air at an absurd rate. A lot of experienced divers dive as if they're solo, but may also have a dive-buddy hazard.

I'm not trying to make anyone nervous, or think they have to attend a solo-diving course and buy a pony-bottle tomorrow. However, the idea that you are ready and equipped to handle common emergencies by yourself, might turn a lot of what would be emergencies into mere annoyances. Most divers should be safe if they follow their open-water training, but you can always improve that level of safety.
 
@Orenda has not been here since June 11, we may just be talking to one another, that is not uncommon.

Gas consumption is not entirely dictated by size, but by a large number of factors including weighting, buoyancy, trim, propulsion, breathing pattern, relaxation, and probably some innate factors we cannot put a label on.

I was a competitive swimmer from age 4 through high school and believe that had an effect. I have always been relatively fit. I started diving in 1970 and have always had good gas consumption. So, now I am 68 years old, 5' 10" tall, 185 lbs, definitely not lithe. I did not start recording my RMV until 2010 at about 440 dives. My RMV has decreased just a little since then, but the variation, on the high side has decreased. Exertion certainly has an effect on my RMV, but, being cold has nearly as negative an effect. It takes a lot to shake me up underwater these days. So, my average RMV is O.36 cu ft/min, probably as low as nearly all dive guides. It makes it very easy for me, I can get away with an AL80 for nearly all dives. Of course, one exception is the very long dives I do with Aldora Divers in Cozumel, there I use one of their HP Steel 100s :)
 
You mention diving with a new DM and being okay with it when they do not have much experience. Was that when you had 100 dives, 200, 300, more? I have less than 20. I do not believe it would be the same situation for me as it is for you. I am sure it is okay when you have a lot of experience. It is not okay when you do not and you are paying for the DM having that experience. How can I count on a DM to help if they do not have the experience? I understand why he wants to be a DM. If he is going to be a good DM, then I expect him to understand why I am not comfortable diving with him.

Let's say you are paired up with me. Should I look in your log book and decide you would not have the experience to help me if I had an issue and refuse to dive with you on a shallow dive? After all my dive buddy should be the first one to assist me. If you have a DM then he is trained for leading dives. Divers are primarily responsible for themselves. You can of course not dive with any DM if you so choose. That is why divers can call a dive at anytime, even before the dive starts. So if you are not comfortable then call the dive before it starts, or just not dive with this DM. That is fine with everyone.
 
Didn't read too many posts... but if the guy is 240 and large he is going to use more air. Chasing a lower RMV is not particularly productive in itself. If someone says (said) get off your aZZZ and hit the bike, pool, or treadmill and improve your actual aerobic conditioning, that might be somewhat productive and beneficial.

This may be true for newer divers. I've dived with many large divers who are very good on air. I'm 300 pounds and decent on air.
But it took me a long time to have a low RMV. However on my dives I try to move as little as possible and let the water carry me.
I did a lot of sports when young as well as playing wind instruments Trombone and Euphonium. Cross country I did twice a week in my teens. I'm not fast but I can get into a steady rhythm. I do that with my diving as well.

Yes if you saw me you would tell me to get off my arse and do some treadmill and other conditioning. :)

I am going to be doing some cold water diving ( for me 16c - 23c ) in Bali. In Lombok and Nusa Lebongan.
Most dive sites have often very strong and unpredictable currents and undertows which make this more suitable for more experienced divers. It's going to be a work out for me. These are dives I think divers should come out and experience.
 
I only got one notification of a reply so I missed most of this, but to respond to the reply about my dive shop, I have some answers. 1. They are not letting me guide their boat dives, just a shore dive to a reef at 20 ft depth that’s a 150 yard swim from shore, a place many do their open water cert dives, and it stays 20 feet for about 7 miles out so no risk of rogues exploring too deep. On boat dives I will only act as an assistant DM to learn and grow my experience. 2. I took the rescue diver course (which is required of a divemaster) that showed me, and I demonstrated, the proper actions to take in an emergency, including the one you mentioned. 3. There are 3 major organizations that certify DMs, PADI, NAUI, and SSI, two require 60 dives to complete DM and NAUI requires 70. So wherever you go, you may have a newer DM. 4. What kind of dives did you do? 20 of my dives were solo, the boat dropped us off and it was my responsibility to navigate from and to the boat on my own, as well as handle any problems (including myself getting tangled and handling it). I dove on a boat with a woman that had 200 dives, but neglected to inflate her bcd enough on entering and panicked so the DM had to assist her, so just because you have 200 dives with your husband holding hands at 30 ft in the Caribbean doesn’t mean you’re more experienced. 5. Usually the divemaster has more experience than you in diving that site, that alone gives them more “dives” in that spot, so listen to them. 6. How many DMs do you think have actually responded to a serious emergency? Most will be their first time too.
I completely understand your concern as a newer diver, as I had the same when I started, I did a boat dive with a DM that told me it was his first DM dive and was visibly shaking, but when scuba diving, the first rule is YOU are responsible for your safety, so get used to that. The DM designation is not a guarantee of perfection. It means they studied, and demonstrated the skills necessary. You are welcome to ask every DM you go with to give you their dive number, but if that’s all you go by, be ready to get anxious.
And as a response to my other posters, my rate has already increased with your suggestions. So thank you.
 
I only got one notification of a reply so I missed most of this, but to respond to the reply about my dive shop, I have some answers. 1. They are not letting me guide their boat dives, just a shore dive to a reef at 20 ft depth that’s a 150 yard swim from shore, a place many do their open water cert dives, and it stays 20 feet for about 7 miles out so no risk of rogues exploring too deep.
And as a response to my other posters, my rate has already increased with your suggestions. So thank you.

Your work is between you and the dive shop really. In many places in Asia where I dive some guides are only rescue certified. They also lead divers on the shallower max 30m depth dives. 150 yards from the shore is a nice warm up swim on the surface using a snorkel. Glad you have lowered your gas consumption rate.

Enjoy your diving and guiding.
 
Hi @Orenda

I assume your solo dives were because the boat let you. You appear to have too few dives to have a solo cert. Did you dive with a redundant gas source?

Have you calculated your RMV yet?
 
With all of that out of the way, a little "secret" of the dive-industry is that you, the diver, should always act as if you are the #1 person responsible for your own safety at all times. Sure, the dive-shop may be liable from a legal sense. Sure, there are buddy-diving standards (which buddies often ignore). However, if you do want to be safe, the only person who can really ensure that is you.
I agree with that statement. Not just diving, but with everything I am the one responsible for my own safety. That is why I do not feel comfortable diving with that company. I know my limitations and will not dive beyond them. Diving in the ocean, an environment I have no experience in, with a DM who has very little experience does not seem safe to me.
 
Let's say you are paired up with me. Should I look in your log book and decide you would not have the experience to help me if I had an issue and refuse to dive with you on a shallow dive? After all my dive buddy should be the first one to assist me. If you have a DM then he is trained for leading dives. Divers are primarily responsible for themselves. You can of course not dive with any DM if you so choose. That is why divers can call a dive at anytime, even before the dive starts. So if you are not comfortable then call the dive before it starts, or just not dive with this DM. That is fine with everyone.
If you want to look at my log book to see how many dives I have in order to understand my experience level, I have no problem with that. There is too much at stake for me not to drop my ego at the door. If you decide my lack of experience makes you uncomfortable then you should refuse to dive with me on a shallow dive, in a swimming pool or a mud puddle. You are not going to hurt my feelings.

What I have been trying to say is that with my lack of experience, knowing a DS is hiring a DM with a similar lack of experience, I am not comfortable diving with any DM in that shop. I would be uncomfortable, not feel safe, and even if nothing went wrong I would not enjoy myself as much as I should. If I am not comfortable and do not feel safe, I will call the dive. I would rather avoid that in advance than just before the dive itself.

I understand you would be comfortable with that situation and that is great. Would it make a difference to me if you were my dive buddy? Absolutely it would. But unless we arrange that in advance, how am I supposed to know? I am not saying others should not dive with that company. I am stating that I should not dive with that company at this time.

Reading and thinking about what you and others have posted I am starting to think I should postpone my dive trip to Florida until I have more experience. I want to enjoy myself, see new and beautiful things, see and experience life as I never have. Maybe it would be best if I waited until I have 100 dives or more in a small lake or quarry, better buoyancy, trim, breathing and finning skills. More importantly, maybe I should wait until I have taken a rescue class. I don't want to do that until I have more experience and can concentrate on the rescue part and not my foundational skills. I feel I can learn more about the rescue and helping others if I am a better diver first. That is a different subject however.
 
6. How many DMs do you think have actually responded to a serious emergency? Most will be their first time too.

I agree with everything you mentioned, but this. You will be surprised at the number of real world emergencies you get involved in. FWIW, when I was a candidate, I worked with one particularly terrible instructor. His students were grossly overweighted and many had little or no buoyancy control. Bad instructors for OW students can be great experience for DM candidates...

If you can get pool/confined water time take it. When you aren't working with students, you have a lot of time to work on your own skills. By the time you've mastered the horizontal hover, you'll find your air consumption to be much improved. Use your "free time" in the water wisely - if you are just watching and waiting, you can work on your own trim, buoyancy, kicks etc.

Lastly, remember being with students/divers is work. If you have to chase students because they've lost control of their buoyancy and they are plummeting to the briny deep as they attempt to inflate their BCDs by grabbing their snorkels, you aren't going to have the same air consumption as you when you're having a fun dive. Start every dive with a full tank. There's less stress, and you always need to have adequate air for contingencies (read about Rock Bottom Gas Planning). If you go in the water with 10 people, but only 9 show up at safety stop it sucks if you have to worry about running out of gas while you drop down to look for a little lost lamb.

You are also going to be in a position when you have to be able to self-rescue. If you are doing an ascent and develop a reverse squeeze, for example, you can't count on anyone else to have enough gas to hang out with you until you get to the surface. The same thing goes for accidental deco. If you are on dive 6 of the day, but your students are on dive 2 or 3 and you loose a lamb, descending to look for said lamb may put you into deco.
 
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