Negative entry vs Using a downline

[LiteHedded]

One of the reasons that this thread is just a shouting match is the amount of misinformation and exaggeration that is going on from both sides. Several people, including me, have called out Dan for his attempts to elevate GI3 to sainthoood and declare that he never did anything remotely wrong in his life.

he did and said all those things. he was a real ******* on the internets. no denying it. anyone can go and read it.

I agree with this. I said that I have drifted away from DIR in a number of ways, and one of those ways is the reliance on making mathematical calculations and similar decisions under water while potentially under the influence of narcosis. I have two friends who were bent on a decompression dive using these kinds of calculations. They were using a computer in gauge mode as a bottom timer. The computer profile of the dive showed that they had done a very different dive from the one they thought they had done, and they had calculated their ascent (which also turned out to be different from what they thought it was) based on the dive they thought they had done rather than the one they actually had done.

there is no prohibition on using dive computers. tons of gue divers use them. shame to buy an expensive piece of kit like that and put it in gauge mode. especially if it's running the exact same algorithm pragmatic deco and ratio deco (taught in the classes) are based on. doesn't make a ton of sense. although after doing a bunch of dives most of us will realize they aren't needed and regret the purchase.

when the baker's dozen for not using dive computers was written the things were much different than what's available today. most of the points dont even apply anymore and the rest point more to uneducated divers than problems with the computers. which is why they are frowned on more at the early stages in training

 

[danvolker]

One of the reasons that this thread is just a shouting match is the amount of misinformation and exaggeration that is going on from both sides. Several people, including me, have called out Dan for his attempts to elevate GI3 to sainthoood and declare that he never did anything remotely wrong in his life. Having done that, I would like to turn around and switch to the other side.

OK, fine. George was not nice to people on the Internet, that were outside of family and team. If he thought he could help his team by destroying someone he thought was a somewhat negative influence, that could be all that was required for this person to become the butt of some nasty rants on the Cavers or tech list. This could have had severe ramifications to some people...and some were clearly not deserving of the suffering George caused them, in order to create the Aesop's Fable he was orchestrating with them.

This was not the socially commendable behavior we all wish had been adhered to--the behavior JJ exhibits today, that makes JJ the new face of DIR or GUE. Except, JJ was so traumatized by the negative marketing effects George left behind, JJ has left DIR to be associated with George, and now wants only to be seen as GUE....or at least this is a short partially accurate version

It has never been my "mission" to elevate George to sainthood. Because he was a dive buddy of mine, when I hear a condemnation of George that is unfounded, my reaction is to defend...as I would for any of you guys in the same scenario. I don't want to spend my life as an "apologist" for George though. I would prefer we could just leave it the way it is now, and not beat this horse to death any longer!!!!!

.....History of the development of DIR, the ownership of GUE, and the ownership of Halcyon, you might find one name appearing in all three places.

I'm pretty sure if I tell the history on this, it will mean TC will refuse to believe it...but this is so easy to corroborate.......
Back in the mid-90's, the 100 man WKPP team wanted better gear for doubles diving.....If you looked at the tech divers of the day, many were wearing these huge bulky traditional style BC's with close to 100 pounds of lift, that were made for doubles...In fact, George let me use an old one of his for my first deep dive with them on the Dry Docks of N Miami. These were sloppy--the tanks would move around alot, and the BC was very high drag, and the amount of lift was insane.
The WKPP guys were trying to get Scubapro, or DiveRite, or Mares, or anyone big, to make a backplate and wing that was closer to the cave style that was being made in more of a DIY manner, cobbling together want the big guys made that was OK, with things that were missing or better made yourself. This was a huge change....others on this board diving in the early 90's should chime in on the poor options available for tech or cave divers.....
So the big mfg's could not be bothered with the requests made by Jarrod....they just ignored them, and said there was no market for this, and there never would be.
Robert Carmichael of Brownies 3rd Lung, was a WKPP support diver, and he was a great tinkerer and inventor in his own right---Robert took the design that JJ and the others of WKPP had been trying to get the big MFG's to go with, and used his little R&D shop at the Brownies Factory to build the prototype backplates and harnesses...and the prototype WINGS.....When George and JJ got their hands on these, it was like 6 year old kids on Christmas morning....they were thrilled with the design....they began wearing them, and then ALL of the other WKPP members wanted them....and then the "friends" of the WKPP members wanted them.

So as Carmicheal and I were friends, and he knew I was active on rec.scuba and the tech and cavers lists, he asked me if I would help market this new creation of his, which he would call Halcyon.

There was no real budget, beyond a tiny stipend for my time, but we got out some good photos, and did some demos, and showed up at a DEMA show with the smallest booth DEMA would let you have.....and while the Scubpro booth was the size of a small city, as was Mares and the others, from the moment of show opened on the first day, there was a line all the way from the opening door, straight to Halcyon....and the Halcyon booth was mobbed every minute, of every day in that show....the guys at Scubapro and Mares and the other big ones, looked to be in shock over this...they saw they had missed the boat that year.....Of course, just one year later, Scubapro had a bp/wing system that looked an awful lot like the Halcyon one !!!

One other difference...if you looked at the BC's and wings in use for cave diving back then....they had flimsy material to protect the bladder with...and the stock BC's or wings from 100% of the big guys, would either puncture easily--or--you would have to rip out the bladder and re-inforce the wing yourself...which plenty of guys did I am sure..back to the cobbling....
The Halcyon wings were nothing like this...the Explorer Wing was incredibly tough--it was created to be as close to puncture proof as was possible...versus what the big guys were making, that they were selling by the Hot new color, or the big new pockets...and where they saw no importance in having a wing that could withstand bumping in to a sharp rock at 200 feet down, and a mile into a cave. They just wanted the masses.... Halcyon wanted the cavers and tech guys and girls....And Halcyon Built the gear FOR them. That is why they became known as the only DIR gear company--they were the first to care about the real needs...
Today there are many good and quality choices. Halcyon is still a very tough piece of gear, and they will always have been the first for this.

 

[TSandM]

How did a thread on descent lines become a dissection of DIR diving?

T.C., there are some of us who find standardizing our equipment and procedures a desirable and useful thing. Other people don't, and they don't have to dive that way. It's not worth getting exercised about. I have to admit that, to date, I have never had to root in anybody else's pockets to find anything, although I have put many things BACK for teammates. But if I had a buddy who lost a mask and got panicky and wasn't looking for his spare, I know where it is. If I look at a buddy on the boat and see his left pocket is flat, I can ask him if he has remembered his SMB. It's not a big deal, but it can be useful. I do dive with people who trained at various times, and keep their stuff in different places because the SOPs changed. It's never caused a problem nor do we refuse to dive with one another because our pocket contents are different.

It simply amazes me that, in today's world, there is STILL so much hooferaw about a very simple diving system. People who adopt it like standardization and operating as a team. People who prefer operating alone or want to make other choices in gear, gas and procedures, are free to do so. I have done some sidemount diving. It doesn't make me less of an adherent to the idea that the GUE system of diving solves a LOT of the problems we read about every day on this board.

 

[AfterDark]

My 1st negative entry was 3 years ago in NC. A stiff current was running so floating on the surface wasn't an option. Descending without a down line wasn't one either. The technique was to jump in negative, stop at the hang line, (Carolina rigging) quick gear check then forward to the down line for the descent. Not something a novice would be real comfortable with I'd imagine.

 

[T.C.]

TC, what I was told from various GUE instructors and divers, was that back-up gear (mask, dsmb, timer, etc) is in the right pocket because the stage cylinders (when worn) are on the left. If you lose your mask, you don't want to have to faff around the stage to get to your back-up mask. You want to be able to access it easily and quickly. I hope that helps.

Sure, that makes sense.

So why carry the stages on the left?

It makes it real easy to spot something missing. Right arm is bare? Yup missing your bottom timer.

It's that hard to touch gear to verify you/your buddy has it? What if your buddy wears a computer on his right arm.

And there have been a plenty of times when I've been able to reach over and help a buddy stow something real quick either in the water or on a boat.

It's that hard to say, "hey, stick that in there"?

Also all the emergency procedures are the same no matter who I'm diving with.

What emergency procedures require you to lose/forget your own gear, then borrow mine?

But it's easier to fool someone than it is to convince them that they've been fooled, I guess.

You know, that's what I hear alot from the ex-DIR divers....

Since you never met him and seem not only to have a huge bias against all DIR and cant get over someone that has not posted on the internet in somewhere near 10 years let me relay a personal experience I had with George on 2 occasions...Second time about a year later, on a recreational lobster dive on another commercial dive boat, we were suiting up next to each other (again, with my non-DIR rig), he glanced over at my rig, asked if he could give me some advice and explained to me why some of my rigging was not optimal, explained the reasons why and the pros/cons of the set up.

WHY?

Why feel the need to proslytize his diving religion? Would you be offended if someone someone asked if they could tell you about their religion on a boat?

The DIR rig is optimized for deep caving diving. It has zero strong advantages over a non-DIR rig in rec. diving. His thinking that it does, and wanting to spread his religion, is just a sign of this desire to preach "his" rig.

If you had been around back then (on tec diver and cavers) you would have gotten the “joke” about that. TDI sent him an instructor card, George was never an instructor, never did an ITC and he used to laugh about that all the time.

Oh, I get it. Insulting dead people, bad-mouthing them publically, and continuing to carry out this public tirade which cost his "team" sponsorships and cast them all in a bad light, and doubtlessly brought great pain to a suffering family and friends, and cost everyone associated with him greatly...that's a JOKE?!?

I'm sure you fit in well with George...

I am not sure you really do know how the continuous harness system works.

I got it. But wouldn't a system that allows replacement of the individual strap make more sense? Something happens to part of that continuous harness, you have to replace the entire set up.

What is your point here? In any technical training, DIR or otherwise, divers are trained to use kicking techniques that do not create a downward thrust. Paddle fins are used because they work better on certain kinds of kicks used in technical diving than other kinds of fins. I can do all the kicks in any kind of fin, but some of them really, really suck with some of them.

My point was not in terms of technical diving, but in terms of Rec. diving. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. Where did the hatred of splits, which work well for Rec. diving, come from...if not the tech community?

Here you are showing a misunderstanding of history. In the earliest days of technical diving, there weren't many options for purchasing this equipment. If you look into the history of the development of DIR, the ownership of GUE, and the ownership of Halcyon, you might find one name appearing in all three places.

Hmmm....$ound$ like $omeone had a few idea$ on how to $et up gear.... For a lazy person; who was this person?

OK, fine. George was not nice to people on the Internet, that were outside of family and team. If he thought he could help his team by destroying someone he thought was a somewhat negative influence, that could be all that was required for this person to become the butt of some nasty rants on the Cavers or tech list. This could have had severe ramifications to some people...and some were clearly not deserving of the suffering George caused them, in order to create the Aesop's Fable he was orchestrating with them.

But this is NOT a justification. It is merely an excuse to bully and harrass. And as the archived post from DecoStop shows, it cost the WKPP "team" dearly.

I would prefer we could just leave it the way it is now, and not beat this horse to death any longer!!!!!

Target, Cease Fire.

I'm pretty sure if I tell the history on this, it will mean TC will refuse to believe it...but this is so easy to corroborate.......

Wasn't it Bill Main that developed this rig; and several other members of the WKPP team that improved it? When I look up Hogarthian Rig, I see many people's names...

Today there are many good and quality choices. Halcyon is still a very tough piece of gear, and they will always have been the first for this.

Actually, I find them middling in terms of quality. Personal opinion.

How did a thread on descent lines become a dissection of DIR diving?
Because I find it a great way to learn. I've started thinking about using a BP/W setup. Justification for this is better than, "it looks cool, I want that".

T.C., there are some of us who find standardizing our equipment and procedures a desirable and useful thing.

That's one thing I fail to understand. Sorry if it seems like I'm attacking it, as always you're free to dive your gear.

But saying that something has to be somewhere because the team wants it there just baffles me. As I said, I dive my rig, not the team. Shouldn't it be optimized for the individual; which may avoid causing a stressful situation?

 

[boulderjohn]

I got it. But wouldn't a system that allows replacement of the individual strap make more sense? Something happens to part of that continuous harness, you have to replace the entire set up.

Nope.

First of all, it is way harder to break webbing accidentally than it is to break a plastic buckle on a strap. In fact, damaging that webbing enough to require replacement, except for wear and tear over many hundreds of dives, is nearly impossible. A full length of webbing is much cheaper than a replacement strap with a buckle. The owner can replace it without any help in a matter of minutes. If you break a buckle or have damaged the strap enough to need replacing, you are not only buying a more expensive part, you will probably have to sew the replacement part on, using a heavy duty sewing machine, something you will have to pay a specialist to do. I recently purchased a brand new heavy duty gear bag with straps identical to typical BCD straps. The buckle broke under the weight of a wet wetsuit, backplate, etc. There was no hope of fixing it. Fortunately the shop replaced it for free under warranty.

So let's say that after several hundred dives that harness is beginning to show wear. At the same time, your buddy's BCD, used the same amount of times, is also beginning to show wear. On your backplate, the only wear is on the harness--the backplate is as good as new. Spend a couple of bucks on a new harness and a few minutes threading it through and you essentially have a new rig. Your buddy's BCD is probably showing wear all over, and it will have to be replaced in its entirety, costing hundreds of dollars, just as our shop has to replace its rental BCDs in their entirety every couple of years.

 

[danvolker]

Nope.

First of all, it is way harder to break webbing accidentally than it is to break a plastic buckle on a strap. In fact, damaging that webbing enough to require replacement, except for wear and tear over many hundreds of dives, is nearly impossible. A full length of webbing is much cheaper than a replacement strap with a buckle. The owner can replace it without any help in a matter of minutes. If you break a buckle or have damaged the strap enough to need replacing, you are not only buying a more expensive part, you will probably have to sew the replacement part on, using a heavy duty sewing machine, something you will have to pay a specialist to do. I recently purchased a brand new heavy duty gear bag with straps identical to typical BCD straps. The buckle broke under the weight of a wet wetsuit, backplate, etc. There was no hope of fixing it. Fortunately the shop replaced it for free under warranty.

So let's say that after several hundred dives that harness is beginning to show wear. At the same time, your buddy's BCD, used the same amount of times, is also beginning to show wear. On your backplate, the only wear is on the harness--the backplate is as good as new. Spend a couple of bucks on a new harness and a few minutes threading it through and you essentially have a new rig. Your buddy's BCD is probably showing wear all over, and it will have to be replaced in its entirety, costing hundreds of dollars, just as our shop has to replace its rental BCDs in their entirety every couple of years.

I have dived my first Halcyon 18 pound wing and the same harness, heavily since 1997 ( or 98--whenever the first year was that Carmichael started making them)...the wing is a slightly lighter shade of black, but the material is good as new still. The Harness is still totally rugged, though I have seen some new harness strapping that is softer and yuppier....enough to look, but not buy

How is that for toughness?

 

[boulderjohn]

I have dived my first Halcyon 18 pound wing and the same harness, heavily since 1997 ( or 98--whenever the first year was that Carmichael started making them)...the wing is a slightly lighter shade of black, but the material is good as new still. The Harness is still totally rugged, though I have seen some new harness strapping that is softer and yuppier....enough to look, but not buy

How is that for toughness?

Great. I think the difference between your experience and mine is that I did a whole lot of walking around on shore before and after dives carrying double LP 108s. My webbing was showing wear on the top edges from rubbing on the backplate, but that took hundreds of dives. I don't know how many more I could have done with it before replacing the webbing--maybe another 100 or so. I finally sold it because it was purchased in the first shop with which I worked and I am with a new shop now, and you know what that means.

 

[jadairiii]

....Oh, I get it.....

No you don't. And you have proven that over and over. Go dive and have some fun.

 

[T.C.]

No you don't. And you have proven that over and over. Go dive and have some fun.

You don't recognize sarcasm?

Read it again. A joke does not excuse his pathetic behavior toward a dead diver. Nothing does.

That's all I'll say; I already got a 30 point cut for continuing to fire after cease fire.