Negative entry vs Using a downline

[PfcAJ]

Snip

All these Qs are why I don't think you understand the system.

Stages go on the left because longhose is on the right, which is a function of how the valves turn on the manifold. The longhose getting caught up in stages has the potential to be very bad. The secondary benefit is that it leaves 1 side unencumbered.

Computer/bottom timer (we're not real big on computers for planning deco) is on the right arm so you can see your depth while adjusting buoyancy. Compass is on the left so you can see it while scootering.

Sometimes you can easily talk, other times you can't (underwater).

A good example of an emergency procedure that benefits from standardization is unconscious diver recovery. Having your inflator(s) and dump(s) in the same place ensures you're always going to know where they are in a stressful situation. Another example is a regulator malfunction. Since everyone I dive with dives the same way, its easy to identify what you're breathing, what you're not breathing, and what needs to be fixed. Often its easier for a buddy to see and fix something that it is for you to fix it. I once had a post start to bubble at 200ft deep some 1500ft back in a cave. Because of DIR, it was trivial for my buddy to come in, shut down the post, purge the reg and fix the leak.

Bill Main was the guy who introduced a concept of strict minimalism and streamlined gear. Hogarthian served as the base and DIR took it to a fairly universal system.

DIR divers recognize the strength of the team concept. Equipment standardization serves to provide massive logistical benefits . I can show up literally anywhere in the world and hit the ground running because the equipment is the same. A standard set of in water procedures means seamless integration with any team. I can show up in Italy to wreck dive and dive the same way I do when I dive with my Hong Kong friends on a reef dive, which is exactly the same way I dive with my N Fl cave friends. The only thing that changes is the size/number of tanks. Easy peasy.

I will contend that the same advantages it has in technical diving easily transfer over to recreational diving. Literally all my responses for different situations are the same, from donating gas to hand signals, nothing changes.

I'm sure we can make parallels with your time in the Army. What happens to your thumb whenever you pick up your rifle to fire? It flips the safety, right? Ever ended up with something like a shotgun that doesn't have that thumb safety that you've trained on thousands and thousands of times and been put in a stressful situation? I have. That safety was not where I thought it was. This lesson hit home, and while no one got hurt, someone could have all because I was used to doing something a certain way and it didn't transfer over due to high stress. This just extends that concept to diving and smooths it out across all facets of the activity.

 

[AfterDark]

All this GUE / DIR stuff, solo diving sounds way easier to me.

 

[The Chairman]

Just curious... was there ever any consensus on which was better: down line or hot drop? I've used and enjoyed both. I find the hot drop better for smaller groups but either seem to work well for me. On the deeper dives, I almost always run out of bottom time before I run out of gas.

 

[PfcAJ]

Both are better.

 

[T.C.]

I will contend that the same advantages it has in technical diving easily transfer over to recreational diving. Literally all my responses for different situations are the same, from donating gas to hand signals, nothing changes.

But how is the gear stronger than a traditional rec. kit? What would be the incentive to spend all the money required to change? This is why the preaching of it to non-tech divers; which coupled with the my gear is better attitude makes it annoying to deal with DIR divers. There is no advantage or reason to switch, thus any attempt to change people is a moot point.

A good example of an emergency procedure that benefits from standardization is unconscious diver recovery. Having your inflator(s) and dump(s) in the same place ensures you're always going to know where they are in a stressful situation.

I have yet to see any BCD that has the inflator or dump in a different place. Even the rec. gear does. I'm not sure you could get it any other way.

DIR divers recognize the strength of the team concept. Equipment standardization serves to provide massive logistical benefits. I can show up literally anywhere in the world and hit the ground running because the equipment is the same. A standard set of in water procedures means seamless integration with any team. I can show up in Italy to wreck dive and dive the same way I do when I dive with my Hong Kong friends on a reef dive, which is exactly the same way I dive with my N Fl cave friends. The only thing that changes is the size/number of tanks. Easy peasy.

Right, but standardization doesn't mean using your same gear on every dive, in this context it means standardization across a team.

I'm sure we can make parallels with your time in the Army. What happens to your thumb whenever you pick up your rifle to fire? It flips the safety, right?

Thumb stays in the same spot. I'm left-handed with a rifle. If I were a DIR Soldier, I'd be forced to carry my rifle on the right, ammo on the left, first aid on the left, since that's how the rest of the team does it. The Army actually used to force people to do that, before our time. As it stands, I set up my gear to shoot lefty- and that includes moving my 1st aid kit to the right side- which caused all sorts of consternation that people couldn't find it if I got hit. But it interfered with the carry and use of my weapon. So I moved it.

The "DIR" CSM didn't like it, but he didn't fight in my rig. I don't dive your rig; you don't dive mine.

If I can get at a knife, backup light, reel, SMB, mask or something else that I will need better on the right (or a different position); why not move it there? Would you really be rummaging on a someone else's gear to get something of theirs instead of yours? And wouldn't it be easier to have them just hand it off?

Ever ended up with something like a shotgun that doesn't have that thumb safety that you've trained on thousands and thousands of times and been put in a stressful situation?

Carried a Mossberg 500 with the top safety my first tour. I can give you all sorts of stories and weapons, but the short story is that I've honestly never struggled with a weapon, even the ones that I'd never seen. Knowing the basics of the system and what makes it work allows you to visualize the problem and develop a solution, even if you've never encountered that problem before.

The problem with getting used to doing something really well one way is that when that way fails, you often struggle to make that way work instead of discarding it and troubleshooting a working solution.

No plan survives first contact with the enemy.




Off Topic-
After a year with a boomstick; I firmly believe you're better off beating a person with the shotgun than shooting at them. Hollywood has some nice myths, and the myth of a shotgun as an effective weapon for anything other than game is one. I fell for it, too, until I got into a fight with one.

---------- Post added April 8th, 2014 at 07:57 PM ----------

Just curious... was there ever any consensus on which was better: down line or hot drop? I've used and enjoyed both. I find the hot drop better for smaller groups but either seem to work well for me. On the deeper dives, I almost always run out of bottom time before I run out of gas.

The one that the other guy supports sucks and is worse.

 

[PfcAJ]

A lot of times people come here and ask for recommendations or advice. People offer it. I made the switch from a jacket BC to backplate and wing and immediately noticed that it was more comfy and less bulky. As to why some people are assholes about it is because some people are assholes.

I've seen all sorts of gear, man. BCs with the Air Trim thing, dump valves on the right (we have 'em on the left), power inflators on the right, all sorts of stuff.

I use the same backplate for reef dives as I do when cave diving. The only swap is the wing (because of bigger or smaller tanks). The rest is the same. I don't show up for a beach dive in Bonaire with double 104s, deco bottles, and stages, if thats what you mean by "the same".

The point about the rifle was the repetitive habit you build. I knew the system, too, and many other systems. But I won't pretend to be as proficient with any of them as I am with an m4(m16, ar-15, whatever). Jack of all trades and a master of none? Pocket trinkets are placed where they are because of the stages (remember the longhose thing is a function of the valves) and ease of getting to said items. Its REALLY nitpicky and not worth getting caught up about. Like you said, who really gives a bakers F*%^ about pocket contents?

Back to the Army, CMSs love to make pretty without regard to function (mostly because they're riding a desk chair). DIR focuses on the function from a top down perspective. There are some things you just can't get around, and one of them is the fact that literally all manifolds are made the same way, and the system spirals off of that. The stuff DIR teaches wasn't made by desk riding divers. The early WKPP guys went through some serious trial and error to get where we are today.

 

[Centrals]

All this GUE / DIR stuff, solo diving sounds way easier to me.

Interesting to know GUE standard on SM in the future.
I hope it is not the "H" again!

 

[TSandM]

T.C. can you let it go? PfcAJ and I like standardization. We see value in it - so do an awful lot of other people who have adopted the system.

You don't. Feel free to dive any gear you like, with any procedures you like! There is room in the ocean for all of us, and each of us is entitled to his own decisions.

If you ask me WHY I dive the way I do, I will tell you why I like the decisions I've made. If you don't ask me, I won't say a word to you about it. I will just go about my dive with my teammates, and we will not have planning issues, communications problems, buddy separation issues, nor will anyone run out of gas. And should there be any issues, we will ALL know how to handle them smoothly, and everyone will be on the same page about it. And if something I have fails, I will be able to borrow something from someone else that looks, feels, and is located where I am used to. I kind of like that.

 

[Greenjuice]

As a self confessed tropical rec diver since the 90's, I have found this discussion extremely educational and am grateful to the moderators for allowing it to continue. I hope there are others who agree.

I am embarrassed to admit knowing almost nothing of DIR until this bare knuckled and open debate. Perhaps it is a reflection of my own ignorance, perhaps a reflection that rec diving (and sites) worldwide far outnumber the situations where DIR practices prevail. If so, then the hope of extending these practices to rec diving is probably already lost.

I believe there is great value to the high level principles of DIR like having good bouyancy control and minimising task loading. However, it is in the application of the low level detail, like where you pocket a particular item, when translating into the rec environment, where it starts to unravel.

DIR can't lay claim to the high level principles because good training, maintenance of skills and rigorous operational procedures are part of all manner of industries and sports which have to manage human frailty and human error.

Low level detail starts to be exposed in the rec environment because of the diversity of these environments. Pitching up with a longhose wrapped round your neck for a tropical rec dive will raise some eyebrows. I have seen seasoned cold water divers arriving in the tropics, adorned with kit like a Christmas tree, which would bring tears (of laughter) to your eyes.

Some personal thoughts:
On selection of gear - I was offered a generic principle, 'if you need it, take two; if you don't need it, don't take it'. Over the years my buddy and I have refined a minimalist approach. We even take the time to trim the excess lengths of rubber on our mask and fin straps. However, I also regularly breach the principles because I never dive with a spare mask and the knife I carry has not been unsheathed in over 10 years.

On standardisation - the strongest argument and possibly the only application is for when it is for another person (like for the location of the octopus). Less persuasive if the aim to reduce task loading, because consistency and familiarity are the real factors here. I have been diving with my regular buddy for over 15 years and can predict the air in her tank to an accuracy of 10 bar (150 psi) at any stage of a dive, and vice versa. I know exactly where every item she carries is and the contents of each pocket. However, these are in a completely different place to mine. This buddy happens to be my wife and any attempt to DIR her into changing her configuration would be met with 'serious consequences'!

On 'looking good' - this is something my buddy could definitely buy into! However, it might mean her choosing to leave the SMB behind because the bulge would be in the wrong place (and spoil her lines).

Joking aside though, there have been occasions, like diving a resort hotel house reef in a secluded private bay, with a sandy bottom at 70' and no boats, where we have had discussions on whether or not we should have an SMB (and who would it be for).

If there is such a thing as DIR for a particular tropical rec dive environment (compare wall drifts to muck dives) the purists would evolve different types of Right.

So I think there are strong parallels in this discussion on DIR, with the discussion on line descents and negatives:

If you really want to Do It Absolutely PErfectly Right (DIAPER) for every rec dive environment, then you would end up doing it differently each time, which then takes you away from the principles of DIR.

Lace that with a touch of arrogance and I will now be bashed for saying what I say and not as 'DIAPER do'. Which is pretty much what this is all about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jadairiii]

.... Knowing the basics of the system and what makes it work allows you to visualize the problem and develop a solution, even if you've never encountered that problem before.
.....

You seem to be finally understanding the DIR system. Good for you.

---------- Post added April 9th, 2014 at 09:28 AM ----------

Joking aside though, there have been occasions, like diving a resort hotel house reef in a secluded private bay, with a sandy bottom at 70' and no boats, where we have had discussions on whether or not we should have an SMB (and who would it be for).

If there is such a thing as DIR for a particular tropical rec dive environment (compare wall drifts to muck dives) the purists would evolve different types of Right.

This is the misconception of DIR for many. Understand the “foundation” of DIR is:

1. Team
2. Standardization

The “standardization” begins with the Back Plate/Wing, continuous harness and 5 D-rings (L Shoulder/R Shoulder, L hip, 2 on the crotch strap), paddle fins, long hose and necklace reg on a down-stream regulator (don’t think I forgot anything). Everything else is added for the particular dive and when added put at a standard location for reasons of functionality. And if you decide to add a scooter or maybe a stage/deco bottle you don’t have to immediately alter your configuration, you muscle memory is already set. You don’t have to “re-learn” everything every time you add a new piece of gear.

Do I carry the same gear for a deep ocean dive that I do for a 20’ beach reef dive? Of course NOT. But my basic “kit” remains the same. DIR is about less gear, less gear task loading.

Did a scooter dive last weekend with a group, 3 of which had never been diving with scooters (Rec 1 diver and 2 fundies divers), the only thing we added were scooters, they did not need to alter any other piece of their gear. Virtually all non-DIR gear would have to be substantially altered to comfortably dive a scooter, making a simple scooter dive into a 4 day course.