NEDU Study

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No. That is the misrepresentations and invalid explanations that has been made all along... association by words only - the word "deep" and the word "bubble". Pretending the nedu test was equal or could be applied to tech diving. And then the distortions to VPM-B plans to force it into some invalid comparison with the nedu test. And by making up comparison methods that are invalid...

Kevin, it's your home made and invalid measuring / comparison methods and graphs at the center of this problem. These have been used to widely promote a fallacy position.

Ross,

You keep saying things like this, but never provide any evidence that your claims are anything other than wishful thinking on your part. In contrast, there is an abundance of evidence from the literature which proves that what Kevin is doing with integral supersaturation is a valid application with substantial precedent. This was articulated here:

NEDU Study

The issue of "pretending the NEDU test could be applied to tech diving" was largely addressed here where David Doolette explains why the analyses of integral supersaturation are relevant and constitute the most plausible explanation for the observed results in the NEDU study:

Deep stops debate (split from ascent rate thread) - Page 20

Kevin has subsequently compared real technical diving profiles prescribed by bubble models with GF approaches that de-emphasize deep stops but which are nevertheless exactly the same total length as the bubble model dives, and shown that the bubble model approaches result in greater total integral supersaturation and a tissue supersaturation pattern distribution that protects fast tissues at the expense of greater supersaturation in slow tissues: exactly the properties of the less successful bubble model dive in the NEDU study. It does not matter whether you believe the NEDU bubble model is a proper bubble model or whether it prescribes proper deep stops. The fact is that real tech dive bubble models prescribe decompressions that produce the same unfavourable supersaturation characteristics.

There is no science to connect nedu test to VPM-B ... only opinions, and theories of some people.

The science to connect the NEDU study to VPM was first discussed in the NEDU study report where (using integral supersaturation) they compared their profiles to 500,000 other possible profiles, some of which inevitably emulated VPM. A more specific comparison with VPM was presented by Dr Doolette (the NEDU study lead author) at that link to RBW above. You did not like this because it involved using VPM on +7 conservatism to get a profile of equal length to the NEDU study dives. This led to you arguing that VPM works on low conservatism but not high conservatism. I imagine that might seem confusing to some users. Finally, the connection between more typical tech dive profiles prescribed by VPM and alternative approaches has been promulgated by Kevin, using essentially the same integral supersaturation approach as Dr Doolette. All of these comparisons have concluded the same thing.

There is an obvious thread of scientific methodology and logic throughout this sequence and you can deny it as much as you like, but there certainly is science to connect the NEDU study and VPM.

I have shown those opinion based positions to be invalid. post #116

No you have not. The post is largely more more of your difficult-to-interpret figures, the first of which purport to show that the NEDU deep stops profile did not protect fast tissues. I have previously pointed out that you cannot evaluate this by comparing peak supersaturation in the leading tissue at the first stop to the supersaturation in a slower leading tissue at some arbitrary point later in the decompression. If you want to demonstrate protection of fast tissues from supersaturation (or not) then model the fast tissues by themselves as was done by both the NEDU study authors in their report, and Kevin on RBW. For example:

Dropbox - Fast%20tissue%20supersaturations.jpg

Both of these analyses by separate authors clearly show that the NEDU bubble model protected fast tissues relative to the shallow stops model, and Kevin's analysis (see the dropbox link) shows that this protection was similar to that afforded by VPM-B on +7 conservatism.

it's a battle of reputations vs real science facts.

This is true in many respects, but its the "science facts" against your reputation.

The nedu test has no actual deep stops - only elongated shallow ones.

If you remain confused by the logic behind the choice of profiles in the NEDU study, then I suggest that you read this again:

Deep stops debate (split from ascent rate thread) - Page 14

Finally Ross, can you give me one good reason why I would want to promote a "fallacy position"?

Simon M
 
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No. That is the misrepresentations and invalid explanations that has been made all along... association by words only - the word "deep" and the word "bubble". Pretending the nedu test was equal or could be applied to tech diving. And then the distortions to VPM-B plans to force it into some invalid comparison with the nedu test. And by making up comparison methods that are invalid...

Kevin, it's your home made and invalid measuring / comparison methods and graphs at the center of this problem. These have been used to widely promote a fallacy position.


***

Anyone could have done exactly the same trick with ZHL-C + GF 50/50.... make it look just like the failed nedu A2.... fiddle the graphs in the same way.... But that would have been an invalid representation of a model and comparison too - exactly what has been done to VPM-B.


There is no science to connect nedu test to VPM-B ... only opinions, and theories of some people. I have shown those opinion based positions to be invalid. post #116


These rebuttals I make, and valid supporting data I present, gets denied and dismissed, because it interferes with the agenda for change being promoted here. i.e. it's a battle of reputations vs real science facts.


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The nedu test... again...

The nedu test has no actual deep stops - only elongated shallow ones. The nedu A2 "bubble" model profile is a unique shallow (DGBM) design.... it is not like VPM-B or RGBM. The failed A2 BVM(3) has its own ideas of gas kinetics, quite different from other models.

ZHL-C and VPM-B, both produce plans that imply or create the same direction of risk, or orientation of extra deco time, as the successful A1 profile. i.e. adding more deeper time, automatically produces more shallow time. Only some RD or DIR theory tends to align a little with the opposite A2 concepts.

No one wants to point the finger (or mention) the real problem area - the RD and some DIR classroom theory and explanations. That's where the plans are hevily modified deep and cutting the shallow time can occur. Instead they use VPM-B as a proxy and blame it for other peoples problems.

****

The nedu test explanation justifies it finding based on the standard gas kinetics. The successful A1 profile followed typical gas kinetics rules, and those same basic rules are used in ZHL-C and VPM-B models (and every dive computer too). The failed A2 supersaturation pattern and profile, followed its own unique model concept rules. There is no connection from A2 to real tech dive profiles or VPM-B.

The nedu test was designed to test the BVM(3) model, and nothing else....

The nedu test predictions and result, showed models that followed the basic gas kinetic rules, turned out to be correct. i.e. ZHL and VPM-B.


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Hi @rossh ,

Why do you think that not a single decompression scientist supports your views regarding VPM?

Good diving, Craig
 
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Hi @rossh ,

Why do you think that not a single decompression scientist supports your views regarding VPM?

Good diving, Craig
Hi,

I don't know.... I have attempted to show clearly the science supports my views.... No one has proven those wrong...

You can read about the VPM model finalization process by the many scientists and researchers involved, here on the decolist.

.
 
Ross, you say that the science supports your views. I assume that you mean that the body of international decompression scientists agree with your analysis.

Why, then, do we have several of those very same scientists on this board, and indeed on this very thread, refuting what you are saying and telling you on no uncertain terms that what you are saying is incorrect? What does that mean?

As for the link, you are pointing at information from around the year 2000. That is a decade before the conclusions of the NEDU research were becoming clear. Are you suggesting that the NEDU research is wrong because 10 years before that someone said something else?

R..
 
Hi,

Haven't we done this argument a 100 times already? The context of the nedu test have been hashed out endlessly. I feel I have shown very clearly that its lack of relevance to tech, and what its context is. Do you think the answers are going to be any different this time?

.
 
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So let's take it one step at a time then.

Are you saying that the international body of decompression scientists agree with your views?

R..
 
Hi,

Haven't we done this argument a 100 times already? The context of the nedu test have been hashed out endlessly. I feel I have shown very clearly that its lack of relevance to tech, and what its context is. Do you think the answers are going to be any different this time?

.
The NEDU study illustrated the general principal that continued slower tissue gas uptake offsets the benefits of reduced bubble growth at deeper stops. This general principal also applies to VPM.
 
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