Near miss diving doubles for 2nd time

[Garth]

Some certifying agencies don't require rescue before taking Adv nitrox and deco but do require basic nitrox. Rescue is highly encouraged and should be a requirement for most people.

 

[TSandM]

This story keeps sticking in my craw . . . Another thing that bothers me is the loss of the line. At the time you went to the instructor to tell him you wanted to thumb the dive, it doesn't sound as though anything particularly bad was going on -- he was watching a student do a drill. And he lost the upline, which was your orientation structure.

If this had happened in one of my tech (or even advanced recreational) classes, it would have been debriefed as a major failure. Maintaining awareness of the line, even when solving problems, is part of the situational awareness you need for technical diving, and I would think it is even MORE important from an instructor.

Let me give you an idea of how my training went: For the most introductory class, we were expected to be able to complete a valve drill, or a mask remove and replace, within a buoyancy window of 5' and within 30 degrees of horizontal trim. For my RECREATIONAL triox classes (I took two, because I didn't pass the first one) we were expected to remain within a 3' buoyancy window in midwater while shutting valves or sharing gas or without a mask. We were always expected to retain awareness of line and team. We stayed in shallow water until we could meet those goals. If you can't manage stuff in the shallows, you aren't going to do any better in deep water!

 

[captndale]

Blindly following the instructor is always a mistake. I believe that it is important to include exercises in self-reliance at every level of training. I test my students on their willingness to make their own decisions. For example, in my entry level class after teaching my students how to check out their gear, I give them regulators with defective SPG's (reading 500 psi with no pressure). They get scolded for not finding the problem. Then I tell them to just go ahead and dive with them that way. I scold them again if they go along with me or praise them if they refuse. I do the same kind of thing at all levels, including technical classes.

 

[Garth]

I don't know what kind of relationship you have with the instructor but maybe you should suggest he read this thread. If what you are saying happened, he may learn a few things. He may also dissagree with the previous posts, i don't know. Or maybe it didn't happen the way you said it did and that is why you created a second account to remain nameless (which i don't think you are allowed to do by the way). Either way, being honest is okay as in this situation but you weren't truely honest with yourself.
ex. I posted some things about my dive recently on another forum. I got creamed for stepping beyond my depth limits of 150ft for advanced nitrox and deco procedures TDI. I dove air which many people dissagree with deep air. The point is I learned a lot from the critizism on the board. I suggest you be honest with yourself because at 150, 175 or even 200 ft it doesn't matter if people around you think you're good. Protecting your ego above water is like hiding your weaknesses from your instructor.

 

[SmpleGreen]

Garth.... it isn't going to be very hard for anyone who was with us that day to recognize that they were in this class, including the instructor. The anonymity is purely because, inevitably, everyone wants to know who was involved, when the point of the thread is to discuss the mistake and share lessons learned.

I will share this thread with the instructor, in addition to the dive shop that I purchased the course through. As with any written account, there are things that have been left out.

For example, once we surfaced, the instructor towed me to shore and told me to relax, and then once we were in 2 feet of water we sat there for a few minutes, I calmed down, and he told me to put on warm clothes and stay on the 50% deco bottle for 10 minutes, and watched me get fully out of the water before descending again. My post kind of makes it sound like he immediately went back down, which was not the case. However, the fact remains he did leave me on the surface to return to depth.

While this situation happened relatively early in the dive, it is easy to see how if we had been down for longer, which was the plan, this could have ended up much worse with a rapid ascent to the surface; lack of surface support and sketchy cell phone coverage could have been a real problem (although I know other people's phones, including the instructor's, worked from where we were).

A DM at depth might also have mitigated the situation entirely, as there would not have been a delayed ascent when I thumbed the dive (the DM and I could have returned to the surface, and the class stayed down), and we would have been more free to navigate back to the down line for ascent.

Other details have been left out as well. The truth is that I actually thumbed the dive twice to the instructor, once during the drills, and then when the instructor signaled for us to follow him up the incline, I gave him the hand wave and thumb again, because it hadn't been clear to me that he had understood me the first time. He gave me an ok to the second thumb.... at this point I probably should have stopped him and demanded a return to the ascent line. This is the one spot where I think, despite all the other problems, I could have prevented this situation entirely if I had been more proactive.

As long as we are discussing further details (and full disclosure), the instructor was also sick during the class. He was coughing above the surface frequently during our 30ft dives the first day, and was having equalization problems after following the ooa diver to the surface during the botched valve isolation drill.

He seemed better on day 2, when my problem occurred, but was clearly still sick.

So obviously, there is a lot to discuss with this story. My recollection of what happened following my turn and swim to the bottom is almost purely pieced together from what the instructor told me. At the time, I was headed face down to depth, had lost a fin, was hyperventilating badly, and had 0 situational awareness due to the flooded mask. I was basically a blind person hoping that I was continuing to head downward and not up. I only know that my attempt to arrest my descent had worked because the instructor told me that I had been descending and was headed for the floor, which was around 50-60ft (the bottom was basically a stepped incline from depth). I did not know that the reason I started to ascend was that he had filled my wing... at the time I had actually thought that I hadn't successfully bled enough air from my wing (basically that my attempt at self arrest had failed), and that I was headed to the surface as a result.

 

[gNats]

Garth.... it isn't going to be very hard for anyone who was with us that day to recognize that they were in this class, including the instructor. The anonymity is purely because, inevitably, everyone wants to know who was involved, when the point of the thread is to discuss the mistake and share lessons learned.

I will share this thread with the instructor, in addition to the dive shop that I purchased the course through. As with any written account, there are things that have been left out.

For example, once we surfaced, the instructor towed me to shore and told me to relax, and then once we were in 2 feet of water we sat there for a few minutes, I calmed down, and he told me to put on warm clothes and stay on the 50% deco bottle for 10 minutes, and watched me get fully out of the water before descending again. My post kind of makes it sound like he immediately went back down, which was not the case. However, the fact remains he did leave me on the surface to return to depth.

Again, we don't know which agency you are training with (I missed it if you stated it), but I do know with PADI, the instructor is NEVER to leave any student uw by himself or herself for any reason or period of time. End of Discussion. It is not negotiable. He also put those other students at risk. Not just you. I have heard of plenty of students waiting for another student to complete the task and ascending and descending based on another student. Which is one reason I have always chosen to go the private or small (one other student) course.

I agree with another poster - the instructor losing track of the up line and taking a PANICKED student up a wall is poor poor instructing.

While this situation happened relatively early in the dive, it is easy to see how if we had been down for longer, which was the plan, this could have ended up much worse with a rapid ascent to the surface; lack of surface support and sketchy cell phone coverage could have been a real problem (although I know other people's phones, including the instructor's, worked from where we were).

A DM at depth might also have mitigated the situation entirely, as there would not have been a delayed ascent when I thumbed the dive (the DM and I could have returned to the surface, and the class stayed down), and we would have been more free to navigate back to the down line for ascent.

Other details have been left out as well. The truth is that I actually thumbed the dive twice to the instructor, once during the drills, and then when the instructor signaled for us to follow him up the incline, I gave him the hand wave and thumb again, because it hadn't been clear to me that he had understood me the first time. He gave me an ok to the second thumb.... at this point I probably should have stopped him and demanded a return to the ascent line. This is the one spot where I think, despite all the other problems, I could have prevented this situation entirely if I had been more proactive.

As long as we are discussing further details (and full disclosure), the instructor was also sick during the class. He was coughing above the surface frequently during our 30ft dives the first day, and was having equalization problems after following the ooa diver to the surface during the botched valve isolation drill.

He seemed better on day 2, when my problem occurred, but was clearly still sick.

So obviously, there is a lot to discuss with this story. My recollection of what happened following my turn and swim to the bottom is almost purely pieced together from what the instructor told me. At the time, I was headed face down to depth, had lost a fin, was hyperventilating badly, and had 0 situational awareness due to the flooded mask. I was basically a blind person hoping that I was continuing to head downward and not up. I only know that my attempt to arrest my descent had worked because the instructor told me that I had been descending and was headed for the floor, which was around 50-60ft (the bottom was basically a stepped incline from depth). I did not know that the reason I started to ascend was that he had filled my wing... at the time I had actually thought that I hadn't successfully bled enough air from my wing (basically that my attempt at self arrest had failed), and that I was headed to the surface as a result.

It appears to me that your original post and the INTENT of your posting could have summed up by you in one or two sentences:

"If you want to avoid a near death experience and a cluster**** all around, do not allow your instructor to go against your better judgement on 1) safety, 2) comfort, 3) calling a dive. Walk away from a dive if at anytime the instructor causes you to lose confidence in him or performs an action you question."

Every decision you stated in your original and subsequent posts have the outward appearances of lacking in good judgement on behalf of the instructor.

The whole OOA drill itself with your instructor should be cause for concern. \

When my diving BF did his neutral bouyancy valve drill for his Tec cert, he was doing the skill when he saw the instructor pulling his long hose from around his neck and moving to the secondary reg. The BF went "HUH? Why's he doing that?" and realized that he was two or three turns from shutting his air off completely. He didn't complete a step in the drill.

the point - the instructor SAW the future and was preparing to grab the BF and hand him a reg while they cleared up the OOA problem he caused. Even if the BF did turn off his air, the instructor was prepared to take control of the situation and his safety by preventing an uw cluster.

Your instructor instead follows a diver up who turned off their own air. Not bright.

Do you see the difference now between an instructor and a guy who managed to get the instructor card?

 

[SmpleGreen]

It appears to me that your original post and the INTENT of your posting could have summed up by you in one or two sentences:

"If you want to avoid a near death experience and a cluster**** all around, do not allow your instructor to go against your better judgement on 1) safety, 2) comfort, 3) calling a dive. Walk away from a dive if at anytime the instructor causes you to lose confidence in him or performs an action you question."

Every decision you stated in your original and subsequent posts have the outward appearances of lacking in good judgement on behalf of the instructor.

The whole OOA drill itself with your instructor should be cause for concern.

gNats... as you correctly point out, there were warning signs. The truth is that the explanation of the valve drill was not great, and the resulting ooa situation with the other diver was not that surprising; I almost made the same mistake when I did the drill (I had done it before the other diver), but signaled the instructor if I should turn my other post back on before continuing, to which he gave the ok. The instructor said that he had a reg ready for the student when he ran out of air, but I did not observe this directly, however I did see the student bolt and the instructor grab him and follow.

I think it is tougher to decide how much is too much though. To what extent is blame assigned to the instructor versus student when things go wrong, and how do you properly assess whether it is negligence on the part of the instructor or incompetence on the part of the student?

Anyway, if the result of this thread was a way for students and instructors to more effectively evaluate when to call a class or put on the brakes, then I think it will have done some good.

 

[SmpleGreen]

I believe I posted this earlier, but this class was TDI Advanced Nitrox and Deco Procedures.

 

[SmpleGreen]

Unfortunately, the VEO 100 computer, which I was diving for this class, does not have detailed dive profiles (I normally dive a Cobra 3, and can see the entire dive in 5 second intervals).

However, it does have a logbook, so I am posting the information that i have for the 4 dives I did as part of this course.

Dive #4 is the one that is being discussed in this thread. Max ascent rate at some point in the dive reached around 1ft/sec. Not clear where in the dive this was though, as the computer doesn't appear to record that information.

If anyone knows of a way to extract more detailed information from a Veo 100, please let me know.

Day 1

Dive #1 - gas switching drills, etc. Ended prematurely because of ooa situation with other diver.
26 ft max depth
62F water temp
24 minute dive time

Dive #2 - Continued doing ooa drills, in addition to flooded mask swim, etc.
30 ft max depth
62F water temp
38 minute dive time
2:24 surface interval from last dive

Dive #3 - SAC rate dive - swim out and back to determine air consumption
40 ft max depth
62F water temp
25 min dive time
10 min surface interval from previous dive

Day 2

Dive #4 - dive where accident occurred.
97 ft max depth (I had two computer, and one said 99ft...rest of info the same)
40F water temp
18 min dive time
17:53 (surface interval)..from prev day

 

[gNats]

gNats... as you correctly point out, there were warning signs. The truth is that the explanation of the valve drill was not great, and the resulting ooa situation with the other diver was not that surprising; I almost made the same mistake when I did the drill (I had done it before the other diver), but signaled the instructor if I should turn my other post back on before continuing, to which he gave the ok. The instructor said that he had a reg ready for the student when he ran out of air, but I did not observe this directly, however I did see the student bolt and the instructor grab him and follow.

I think it is tougher to decide how much is too much though. To what extent is blame assigned to the instructor versus student when things go wrong, and how do you properly assess whether it is negligence on the part of the instructor or incompetence on the part of the student?

Anyway, if the result of this thread was a way for students and instructors to more effectively evaluate when to call a class or put on the brakes, then I think it will have done some good.

That is a good question, and it would be interesting to hear from instructors their opinions on who has more responsibility: the instructor leading the course or the student?

In my opinion, the instructor has the keys to the bus, as they say, and should be sitting in the driver's seat. If an instructor feels a particular student is particularly task loaded, it is the instructor's responsibility to slow the student down, control the environment, manage the risk. Then the student can't create their own catastrophic incident. ANd, if the instructor feels this way, then the student's training should be deferred pending either greater basic experience or pre-requisite training.

I don't believe every student deserves to pass at the tec level.