Navigation error in a cave

[Hiszpan]

If the agencies tried teaching you 4 different cave diving philosophies, it would just be more confusing than helpful.

I disagree.

Cave diving courses should not only give you basics on how to dive different caves, but also how to dive with different buddies. If I am investing time, money and soul into a cave course, I expect a complete product that will give me ability to go out there and cave dive different places with different people. In the words of kingpin Montoya from “Miami Vice” (the movie): “In this business I don’t buy service, I buy the result”.
Most of us don’t do cave course as a pennant to our ego - we do it to use it in real diving.

Looking back at my cave course, adding a REM/arrows only familiarity would not overburden the already rich curriculum that I had to absorb. It would give me basis to be versatile and switch if situation arises.

 

[306dive306]

OP = original poster = the person who created the thread = you

Im happy u made it out of that cave. Im happy ur going to implement changes in ur dive team. Ur a champion for always responding with class.

Cheers and safe dives!!

 

[ginti]

I disagree.

Cave diving courses should not only give you basics on how to dive different caves, but also how to dive with different buddies.

You already should have the tools to do it. A comprehensive cave course should give you the most updated SOP, AND explain to you the principles behind them so that you can discuss them and adjust them depending on the dive. Indeed, since people have different standards, what you need to do is just to discuss the procedures before the dive. When you examine them, you can see these types of procedures:
{1} the ones that you NEVER want to break and neither modify;
{2} the ones that you NEVER want to break, but you can modify if that makes sense;
{3} the ones that you can modify depending on conditions.

The {1}s are those that put you at risk of death if you break them, no matter what, for instance, leaving the mainline without a reel.

The {2}s are those that put you at risk of death if you break them, but there are several ways to ensure them, for instance, navigation rules and gas management.

The {3}s are those that depend on your personal preferences, for instance, diving solo or not.

In your case, the main points were:
- team vs. solo-diving;
- line marking.
None of them is going to kill you if you discuss them before; you just need to ensure that everyone is on the same page. As I mentioned before, I usually (not always) start with OW dives to evaluate my buddies and discuss the procedures. You can do the same if you want, or you can find another strategy. Just find a way to do it.

There are situations in cave diving where you can find something unexpected when exiting the cave, but that's another issue (although related).

 

[cerich]

You already should have the tools to do it. A comprehensive cave course should give you the most updated SOP, AND explain to you the principles behind them so that you can discuss them and adjust them depending on the dive. Indeed, since people have different standards, what you need to do is just to discuss the procedures before the dive. When you examine them, you can see these types of procedures:
{1} the ones that you NEVER want to break and neither modify;
{2} the ones that you NEVER want to break, but you can modify if that makes sense;
{3} the ones that you can modify depending on conditions.

The {1}s are those that put you at risk of death if you break them, no matter what, for instance, leaving the mainline without a reel.

The {2}s are those that put you at risk of death if you break them, but there are several ways to ensure them, for instance, navigation rules and gas management.

The {3}s are those that depend on your personal preferences, for instance, diving solo or not.

In your case, the main points were:
- team vs. solo-diving;
- line marking.
None of them is going to kill you if you discuss them before; you just need to ensure that everyone is on the same page. As I mentioned before, I usually (not always) start with OW dives to evaluate my buddies and discuss the procedures. You can do the same if you want, or you can find another strategy. Just find a way to do it.

There are situations in cave diving where you can find something unexpected when exiting the cave, but that's another issue (although related).

Line marking is not consistent, as a cave instructor, I can show and require markings as per whatever standards exist (very little detail in standards) and also what is used in the geographical area I am teaching, discuss what I have seen elsewhere and try and impart the importance of students communicating with buddies and guides or shops etc whenever they dive somewhere new.

For instance, TDI Full cave, requires the student have 3 directional line arrows and one non directional line marker for the class. Hmm.. yeah, I want more non directional than directional for my students, they will use them more than arrows. The standards say the student must perform "Properly use directional and non directional line markers", OK, what is proper? We can look to e-learning and text book right? It's discussed, but also mentions regional differences. Looking at the latest NAUI standards, we also see liberal use of "proper" marking but no "here is what proper is", however having seen the latest course PPT for the new 2022 cave standards and commented on them with training prior to the new standards, I know it is discussed, but again geographic means knowing the local "SOP's" , which quite frankly can be heavily debated even among locals.

My bottom line, you REALLY have to discuss with team members how you mark, agree and practice on a couple "easier" dives, and when you go to new marked systems that you haven't been in before, take zero shortcuts, even with a briefing and guide, sometimes it makes ZERO sense to how you have been trained.

I have thumbed a dive early because the perm guidlines made no freaking sense and were very often line trapped that would make a dark exit very, very bad.

 

[ginti]

@cerich I am aware of these problems, this is why I said that line marking is something that needs to be discussed before the dive... but now I am not sure anymore if I have been clear enough in my previous post

 

[ginti]

Line marking is not consistent, as a cave instructor, I can show and require markings as per whatever standards exist (very My bottom line, you REALLY have to discuss with team members how you mark, agree and practice on a couple "easier" dives, and when you go to new marked systems that you haven't been in before, take zero shortcuts, even with a briefing and guide, sometimes it makes ZERO sense to how you have been trained.

By the way, the reason why I start diving and discussing procedures in OW is that I am at intro to cave level, so for me, an "easier" dive is an OW one but my approach is basically the same as yours.

 

[kensuf]

I understand full well that you cannot give me an answer. My bone picking with you was a sign of frustration that we are taught cave diving and are told to never compromise safety and the procedures we have been taught, to practice 'muscle memory' by always diving in the same practiced and trained way.

Then real life comes to play and you are stuck with folks who dive the other way - you were not prepared for that during your cave course and is up to you to sort it out and keep on diving safely. To me that is not good 'customer service' on the part of the agencies, who should at least:
a) train you few different ways so that you are versed in all;
b) prepare you for those situations and that you might need to compromise/adjust.

Agencies (and instructors) cannot behave like their way is the only way for the good of us all. It is very idealistic thinking on my part, but it would make things easier.

I would be happy to learn REMs, I just do not have time to keep on flying to Mexico/Florida for each 'adjustment' course.
After the near-miss, I looked for a source of information that would back up my navigation training in discussion with my buddies. I came across this great(?) article by Massimo Ardizzoni:

Navigational Protocols in Mexico

Is it enough for me to read it to start practicing REMs? I do not know, but would love to have that versatility in the comfort of my chair and then practice it in water.

p.s. DM me if you ever plan to visit here

I teach lost buddy drills completely different today than I did back in 2012. This is wholly due to a fatality that happened in 2015. Procedures evolve.

IMHO, you can explain to your buddies *WHY* we don't use arrows anymore for marking intersections (jumps, gaps, t's) and if they don't evolve with the practice that's on them.

 

[kensuf]

Cookies aren't directional though, right? I was taught that you drop an arrow pointing out for a lost buddy scenario where you have to jump to get to them etc., because it's directional and reminds you which way to go when you get back to the line after going after them with your safety (etc.). A cookie wouldn't serve that purpose and my exit could be to the left when I get back to the line and if I just dropped a cookie I may go right and waste gas going in the wrong direction. A REM is team specific and directional for the team. If I was only given the option to take one marker type, it would seem to me that the REM has better functionality. Maybe I'm missing something though (I am still pretty new to this cave diving thing).

A cookie can point the way out if used correctly, even when marking the point you lost your teammate. If your instructor doesn't know how to do that then I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

[rddvet]

The way I learned it, was that a REM is always placed "pointing out" for your team, but can be used in lieu of a cookie as a non-directional marker for situations not requiring a direction or as a directional marker when appropriate for the situation. So yes, functionally it can be used for directional (arrow replacement etc.) marking or for non-directional (cookie like team member accountability etc.), but the placement should be verified to have the correct direction regardless of the situation "just in case". I'm a fan of Justin, as sometimes the Case comes in handy.

Always, it would "point out" for your team, but as no permanent directional markers are REMs, they would never be confused with permanent markers for another team in the cave.

So the REM provides "team" direction that may conflict with permanently installed direction. In the event that multiple teams are using REMs for direction in a silt out, hopefully they'd have ensured they can adequately identify their REMs relative to another team's REMs in that situation (again, like I mentioned earlier, why I'm glad I can make my own with unique markings so it's exceptionally unlikely to come across similar tactile references).

Again though, I'm still new at this whole cave diving thing, with barely a year since I started and not yet full cave, so "I don't know what I don't know". I just can do the best with the knowledge and training I have so far. I'm still in talks with my dive buddy about solidifying how we will use markers, but REMs make a LOT of sense to me personally, and I've yet to find a downside to them compared to arrows and cookies really (though I don't find an issue in using just cookies for non-directional markers either).

I was taught by the inventor how they work so I’m aware. I wasn’t trying to say anything was wrong with your comment. The issue is that a large number of people don’t really understand how a rem was truly meant to work (being both directional and non directional) so I was just ensuring clarity. I was lucky enough that my closest friend was a Bil student and I got to meet Bil a few times and pick his brain.

 

[rddvet]

I disagree.

Cave diving courses should not only give you basics on how to dive different caves, but also how to dive with different buddies. If I am investing time, money and soul into a cave course, I expect a complete product that will give me ability to go out there and cave dive different places with different people. In the words of kingpin Montoya from “Miami Vice” (the movie): “In this business I don’t buy service, I buy the result”.
Most of us don’t do cave course as a pennant to our ego - we do it to use it in real diving.

Looking back at my cave course, adding a REM/arrows only familiarity would not overburden the already rich curriculum that I had to absorb. It would give me basis to be versatile and switch if situation arises.

A good instructor will explain regional differences and differences between what they teach and they have seen other instructors teach. But my point was that they can’t teach everything you could possibly see in the world. At some point you have to rely on what you were taught and a good in-depth discussion with your buddies to resolve serious issues before they arise. And even then there’s a possibility of something you didn’t expect happening.
As I said before, I have experience diving in France. Not one of my cave instructors have ever dove caves in France. So when I went to dive there I spoke with the locals and local experts to understand the differences in how they do things to ensure I was aware of most nuances I’ve never experienced.
At some point it falls on your own personal responsibility not that of the agency. A good instructor teaches you as much as they can, but every instructor and student has limitations on their knowledge and experience. Cave training gives you the building blocks to be a thinking diver and be able to work out weird things you come across

I'm editing a post an hour later because I've thought more about your comments. You're angry at the cave agencies, but the more I think about it maybe it's misdirected anger at your instructor (who I have no clue who it is). Based on your original post, if we pull your buddies out of the equation you made some serious mistakes that shouldn't have happened if you adhered to the basic rules of cave diving. So it starts to make me question the quality of instruction you received in the first place. I for one had one particular cave instructor who in retrospect was awful. I didn't realize it until I took advanced classes like cave dpv and cave ccr where I had quality instructors similar to one of my early instructors who really spent time trying to give you as much of their real world knowledge as they could. So maybe the issue and why you're misdirecting your anger towards the cave agencies may be that your instruction didn't fully give you the building blocks you needed to ingrain the basic safety rules. I don't mean that as a slight to you in any way. It took me taking classes with other instructors and diving with mentors to see the errors of my one instructor.

But either way at the end of the day the two things that happened here is your buddies left you behind and you allowed them to, then also broke safety rules trying to get to those buddies when you should have just exited. And if you were afraid your buddies would be freaked out you left, leave a backup light and a wetnote on the line for them to see. So those issues are really what should be focused on, not that it's an agency's fault.