Navigation error in a cave

[tbone1004]

LOL'ing about the last sentence.

Two years ago I nearly threw all of my cookies out and switched exclusively to REMs. I see no problems with that, my beef is people wanting to use both rems and cookies. Pick one and be done with it.

That makes much more sense then. I agree firmly with picking to one and committing, trying to use both just seems like a giant CF.

Out of curiosity, why did you stay the old school course? Not enough Taco's?



*for anyone curious about the Taco reference, the REM's came from Bil Philips who was a cave explorer in Mexico, and Ken's dog loves Taco Tuesday...

 

[kensuf]

Cookies aren't old school. Clothespins and arrows are.

 

[gbf]

Cookies aren't old school. Clothespins and arrows are.

Outrigger clips.

 

[kensuf]

and duct tape.

 

[tbone1004]

Cookies aren't old school. Clothespins and arrows are.

Medium school?

I do use clothespins when I'm on the trigger though in the back of caves like JB or HiTW where you're going to be dropping 20 of the things. Much nicer to be able to do that on the fly

 

[rddvet]

and duct tape.

Still found in every cave in France

If people find the navigation in mexico confusing, then France will blow their minds. Multiple different colored lines tied together, steel guilotine wire lines, no consistent markings, lots of duct tape distance markers, every other month somebody decides to change the markings/cookies/tape in the cave. Their line wars are much worse than those in mexico because it's a fight between the cave divers and the dry speleos who only cave dive to get to dry cave.

 

[rjack321]

LOL'ing about the last sentence.

Two years ago I nearly threw all of my cookies out and switched exclusively to REMs. I see no problems with that, my beef is people wanting to use both rems and cookies. Pick one and be done with it.

I use arrows, REMS and cookies

Arrows are basically for exploration only. I do carry like two on tourist dives for some potentially rare situation were I want to emphatically point "that way". E.g. In a lost diver search off the mainline I would place and tie into an arrow.

Cookies I use as survey stations, also to mark how far I got on a circuit (not always knowing if the arrows may change directions nearby), or other places were I don't really need a directional marker.

Rems handle 99% of my marking in tourist caves.

 

[Hiszpan]

So.. The reason we don't use arrows anymore is because most cave instructors emphatically believe that the rules of using an arrow are that it should ONLY point to the closest exit, period, and there may be times that installing an arrow goes against that rule. Unfortunately, there was at least one situation that I know of where an arrow pointing the wrong way led to a fatality -- it took that fatality to get instructors to re-think using arrows for navigational markers. Again, unfortunately most of the procedures we have in place have gotten there due to fatalities, things we do today may very well change at some future point if a fatality shows the weakness in that approach.

In terms of training agencies and instructors reconciling different approaches... I don't have a good answer for you except that many agencies deliberately leave navigation vague because there may be local customs and rules that "work" for that location that would differ from another. Also, remember, if someone was trained in 1999, before the advent of cookies, they may not know better - how do you get divers to update?

You might suggest to your friends that an alternative is to use arrows only as permanent markers to point to the closest exit, but then adopt REMs. I'm personally not a fan of REMs, but it may make them more comfortable because it's like an arrow.

Final BTW.. If I ever wind up in Bermuda for a visit, wanna take me diving? I'd be happy to trade out some updated techniques with your friends.

I understand full well that you cannot give me an answer. My bone picking with you was a sign of frustration that we are taught cave diving and are told to never compromise safety and the procedures we have been taught, to practice 'muscle memory' by always diving in the same practiced and trained way.

Then real life comes to play and you are stuck with folks who dive the other way - you were not prepared for that during your cave course and is up to you to sort it out and keep on diving safely. To me that is not good 'customer service' on the part of the agencies, who should at least:
a) train you few different ways so that you are versed in all;
b) prepare you for those situations and that you might need to compromise/adjust.

Agencies (and instructors) cannot behave like their way is the only way for the good of us all. It is very idealistic thinking on my part, but it would make things easier.

I would be happy to learn REMs, I just do not have time to keep on flying to Mexico/Florida for each 'adjustment' course.
After the near-miss, I looked for a source of information that would back up my navigation training in discussion with my buddies. I came across this great(?) article by Massimo Ardizzoni:

Navigational Protocols in Mexico

Is it enough for me to read it to start practicing REMs? I do not know, but would love to have that versatility in the comfort of my chair and then practice it in water.

p.s. DM me if you ever plan to visit here

 

[Hiszpan]

Cookies aren't old school. Clothespins and arrows are.

Found this artifact on one of the dives in a less-frequented passage.

 

[rddvet]

I understand full well that you cannot give me an answer. My bone picking with you was a sign of frustration that we are taught cave diving and are told to never compromise safety and the procedures we have been taught, to practice 'muscle memory' by always diving in the same practiced and trained way.

Then real life comes to play and you are stuck with folks who dive the other way - you were not prepared for that during your cave course and is up to you to sort it out and keep on diving safely. To me that is not good 'customer service' on the part of the agencies, who should at least:
a) train you few different ways so that you are versed in all;
b) prepare you for those situations and that you might need to compromise/adjust.

Agencies (and instructors) cannot behave like their way is the only way for the good of us all. It is very idealistic thinking on my part, but it would make things easier.

I would be happy to learn REMs, I just do not have time to keep on flying to Mexico/Florida for each 'adjustment' course.
After the near-miss, I looked for a source of information that would back up my navigation training in discussion with my buddies. I came across this great(?) article by Massimo Ardizzoni:

Navigational Protocols in Mexico

Is it enough for me to read it to start practicing REMs? I do not know, but would love to have that versatility in the comfort of my chair and then practice it in water.

p.s. DM me if you ever plan to visit here

No cave instructor or agency can prepare you for every possible situation. You learn the basics and more in class. Once you're out diving, you learn more things or how to handle situations you weren't taught in class through real world experience. I've found (at least in florida) there are 2 distinct types of divers. There are those that took the class but then through their diving either become lazy, complacent, or choose to give into others' bad habits (such as blind jumps). Then there's others that absolutely follow the established safety rules they were taught in class and don't allow others to influence their decisions. If I dive with people who have a different mindset than me, I don't dive down to their (what I believe to be) lower standards. I stick to my guns and make decisions based on what I was taught. If a buddy is adamant that blind jumps are ok and doesn't respect my thoughts or training, then I just don't dive with them.
You can't blame the agencies. It's your choice to compromise. Personally if I completely disagree with someone I'm diving with's ideas on what is safe, I will hear their points, but if I disagree I don't adjust to their diving. I stick to my guns and choose whether I want to dive with them. And if I do dive with them, then we all sure as sh-- better be in full agreeance on protocols before we start the dive.
If the agencies tried teaching you 4 different cave diving philosophies, it would just be more confusing than helpful.