NAUI versus PADI

[tbone1004]

Sorry--my wording was faulty and sent a message I did not intend. I meant to say that the false message was heavily promoted and exaggerated by certain individuals in their posts on ScubaBoard.

so for my clarification.

PADI prescribes what is to be done and in what order in their confined water and open water portions. What if any flexibility do you have if say you have 12 pool sessions instead of 5? I.e. how do you do an in depth pool course within the confines of their open water portion? Do you do the 5 pool sessions in order, then just keep going, and if so what flexibility do you have?

and the real curios one for me.
I require a 25m underwater swim in nothing but a bathing suit, as well as a full ditch and don with displacement snorkel clear to be performed before I take anyone to open water as demonstration of in water comfort. I also require the removal and retrieval of a weight belt with a bit more buoyancy gymnastics to be performed prior to OW to prove that they actually have control of their buoyancy.
If they do not perform those skills successfully, I do not take them to open water, period. I don't give up on them etc. since it's not thru a dive shop, but they don't pass. If I were teaching for PADI, do I have any grounds for not taking them in that circumstance? My understanding is no because they performed all of the skills that PADI said is required but I can't hold them to a higher standard

can you clarify? Of note though, this is mainly because I refuse to teach within the confines of a normal dive shop/resort. PADI has a brilliant system for that kind of instruction, but I don't believe in that kind of instruction so I stay away from it with any organization

 

[yle]

PADI prescribes what is to be done and in what order in their confined water and open water portions. What if any flexibility do you have if say you have 12 pool sessions instead of 5? I.e. how do you do an in depth pool course within the confines of their open water portion? Do you do the 5 pool sessions in order, then just keep going, and if so what flexibility do you have?

The "5 pool sessions" from the PADI OW course do not have to be completed as 5 separate sessions. They are more like chapters in a book and they can be completed over any number of days. The only stipulation in the PADI standards is that all skills in "session 1" must be completed before starting "session 2", all skills in "session 2" must be completed before starting "session 3", etc etc. So yes... you can easily spread the five "sessions" out over 12 actual class meetings and add as much extra stuff as you like to fill the time.

 

[boulderjohn]

so for my clarification.
PADI prescribes what is to be done and in what order in their confined water and open water portions. What if any flexibility do you have if say you have 12 pool sessions instead of 5? I.e. how do you do an in depth pool course within the confines of their open water portion? Do you do the 5 pool sessions in order, then just keep going, and if so what flexibility do you have?

Think of the 5 sessions as consecutive segments of the course. You can take however long it takes you to get through each one. Many shops will do it in two sessions of 4-5 hours each over two days. The first two segments take the longest, largely because they frequently include the swim, the float, and all sorts of introductory stuff, so the first two dives will be done on day one, and some of the skills in dive #3 may be done then as well. If things are going well, the instructor will usually have a favorite stopping off point, leaving whatever time is left for extra practice and activities. The next day they will pick things up wherever they left off the day before, and, again, depending on how things are going, the instructor can play with the activities to make good use of time. The last skill the student must do is a mini-dive, in which students pretend they are in open water and plan and execute a dive in the pool. The instructor throws problems at them as they do--things like OOA, mask clear, loose tank band, etc. The instructor can make this take as long as the time available.

That idea can be expanded to any amount of time you wish. If you want to take 20 day-long sessions to cover dive #1 skills, go for it, although I do not advise it.

and the real curios one for me.
I require a 25m underwater swim in nothing but a bathing suit, as well as a full ditch and don with displacement snorkel clear to be performed before I take anyone to open water as demonstration of in water comfort. I also require the removal and retrieval of a weight belt with a bit more buoyancy gymnastics to be performed prior to OW to prove that they actually have control of their buoyancy.

Whenever you do something that is not in the approved curriculum, regardless of your agency and its policies, you are running a liability risk. For example, several years ago an SSI instructor at the University of Alabama had students doing ditch and don drills (ditch-swim to the surface-descend-don). Many instructors do this, although it is not in the standards. A student embolized on ascent and died, which is the reason it is not in the standards. If the student had died doing any of the standard activities, the lawyers in the subsequent lawsuit would not be able to make a convincing claim that the activity was not reasonably safe, but in this case she did not have a leg to stand on. The activity is not in the course precisely because it is considered dangerous by almost all agencies.(I believe the case settled out of court.)

If they do not perform those skills successfully, I do not take them to open water, period. I don't give up on them etc. since it's not thru a dive shop, but they don't pass. If I were teaching for PADI, do I have any grounds for not taking them in that circumstance? My understanding is no because they performed all of the skills that PADI said is required but I can't hold them to a higher standard

You cannot withhold certification for a student who has passed all the required standards but not completed something you added on.

 

[yle]

If I were teaching for PADI, do I have any grounds for not taking them in that circumstance? My understanding is no because they performed all of the skills that PADI said is required but I can't hold them to a higher standard

can you clarify?

I'll try, but it seems that you're confusing two separate issues: holding students to a higher standard (i.e. higher than the minimum standards established by the PADI OW course) or requiring specific additional skills for certification.

PADI instructors are allowed to teach above the minimum standards. PADI instructors are not allowed to add their own specific skills and then deny certification to students only because the students could not perform those added to the satisfaction of the instructor.

PADI instructors are permitted to assess their students' level of comfort in the water, and we are never required to take students on open water dives if we feel doing so could compromise the safety of the student (or other students, or the instructor.)

 

[tbone1004]

@The Chairman I know the post was deleted, but @boulderjohn and @yle just confirmed my statement on why I can't/won't teach for PADI. If I can't fail a student that doesn't perform to my standards, then I have no ability to produce a higher quality student than any other instructor which means we have to play the price game.
i.e. I say a student has to perform a displacement clear as the only allowable snorkel clear. I tape purge valves and don't allow dry snorkels. It's a water comfort situation. They can only clear the snorkel by blasting because they aren't comfortable enough to provide a slow exhalation from depth. If I can't deny them certification or the ability to go to open water then **** that, I don't feel like you have control over your breathing if you can't displacement clear your snorkel. Did they clear their snorkel? yes, but not to my level

The argument for liability for non-prescribed skills goes to lack of instructor flexibility. I won't be a puppet for an agency. The argument against the additional skills for liability is interesting though and not one that I'm sure is clear cut. Did the agency prescribe it? no. Did the agency forbid it? no. Deep grey area there.
I am provided nothing like what PADI prescribes for their courses from NAUI, which is wonderful. Pete, can you give me something to show based on what two PADI guys have said where they have the same or anywhere close to the flexibility that is given to me by NAUI or to you by NASE? Again, nothing wrong with they way PADI does this. They chose to have something with very little grey areas to limit liability. They are a for-profit company and a big one at that, it's important for them to have a lot of CYOA policies. The size limits the amount of quality control they have so by laying everything out very clearly it allows them a lot of control in that regard, but it's not something I will ever want to work with. If I was a LDS owner, I probably would for liability, but that's why I won't run a dive shop...

 

[MichaelMc]

The scheduling effort to fit extra content into the PADI five segment pool plan not designed for it, may not be worth it. More so if you feel that students need to do more in your environment to be safe. If you just have 5 pool sessions, the PADI ordering may be fine, and is well thought out; NAUI gives more flexibility, which can be good or bad depending.

At the post OW level, the scientific university programs center on the university’s needs to qualify students to work as scientists underwater, within a very extensive AAUS 100 hour 12 dive standard, usually over a full semester. As a convenience, they often also offer recreational agency certification to the students in parallel, like master and rescue, as such certifications are more commonly understood by dive operators. They often offer OW as either feeder training or part of the recreational department. Doing that OW in the five PADI segments while supporting the needs of the later science program may not be worth it. Though some schools use PADI for their recreation oriented classes.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

@The Chairman I know the post was deleted, but @boulderjohn and @yle just confirmed my statement on why I can't/won't teach for PADI. If I can't fail a student that doesn't perform to my standards, then I have no ability to produce a higher quality student than any other instructor which means we have to play the price game.
i.e. I say a student has to perform a displacement clear as the only allowable snorkel clear. I tape purge valves and don't allow dry snorkels. It's a water comfort situation. They can only clear the snorkel by blasting because they aren't comfortable enough to provide a slow exhalation from depth. If I can't deny them certification or the ability to go to open water then **** that, I don't feel like you have control over your breathing if you can't displacement clear your snorkel. Did they clear their snorkel? yes, but not to my level

The argument for liability for non-prescribed skills goes to lack of instructor flexibility. I won't be a puppet for an agency. The argument against the additional skills for liability is interesting though and not one that I'm sure is clear cut. Did the agency prescribe it? no. Did the agency forbid it? no. Deep grey area there.
I am provided nothing like what PADI prescribes for their courses from NAUI, which is wonderful. Pete, can you give me something to show based on what two PADI guys have said where they have the same or anywhere close to the flexibility that is given to me by NAUI or to you by NASE? Again, nothing wrong with they way PADI does this. They chose to have something with very little grey areas to limit liability. They are a for-profit company and a big one at that, it's important for them to have a lot of CYOA policies. The size limits the amount of quality control they have so by laying everything out very clearly it allows them a lot of control in that regard, but it's not something I will ever want to work with. If I was a LDS owner, I probably would for liability, but that's why I won't run a dive shop...

I don't think that this is that much of an issue. If you interpret standards strictly, you can ensure you teach at the level you want. PADI defines mastery of a skill as performing a skill fluidly, comfortably, and repeatedly. If your standard of clearing a snorkel is more than "was the snorkel clear at the end" (which is the unfortunately typical definition of fluid, comfortable, and repeatable), you can defend it as to not meeting PADI's definition for skills mastery. I think with taping the valves close as you describe doesn't go outside of it, as you can make the valid claim that a student may have to use a snorkel on vacation that doesn't have those features. So in my view, what you want to do is not unreasonable. Though I tell my OW students that after the class, ditch the snorkel, get a collapsible one that will fit in a pocket and only use it in the rare cases where they may need one. Snorkels are best reserved for snorkeling.

Now I teach through a shop where we have constrained pool time, and the way I deal with that is co-teaching for open water. I teach additional material, but it is in my AOW where I step things up a notch. One of my current AOW students hasn't met my definition of master for some of the skills in PPB after 15 dive attempts. And he will not progress onto the navigation adventure dive until he does so. Simple as that. They have to have their buoyancy, trim, and frog kicks down, otherwise adding a task is just a mess.

I expect one day I'm going to get a call from Linda about someone complaining that I'm going beyond standards. I will explain to her exactly what I'm doing (I often talk to my region's training consultant about what I'm doing, so I frequently check to make sure if what I do is within standards. Which reminds me, he needs to get back to me on a question I asked a month ago), how the student did not perform a particular skill comfortably, fluidly, and repeatedly. If PADI says that "well what he/she did was good enough." My answer is "Fine. I'm going to have my lawyer talk to one of PADI's lawyer and we are going to draw up a document where if anything happens to that student in the future, PADI, not me, assumes FULL responsibility, and that any judgement against me is paid by PADI and that any lawyer fees that I incur are paid for in advance (i.e., they pay my lawyer as things go along, nothing comes out of my pocket ever).

If PADI is willing to do that, then I'll sign the person off. But in no way, shape, or form do I ever expect them to agree with that. So what are their options? They can certainly expel me from the organization, as I won't budge from my principles. Plenty of other instructors out there. I certainly am expendable. I don't certify that many students. I don't do anything groundbreaking. But I don't know how many instructors are willing to write student manuals for new standard courses that only have instructor guides (I'm working on one for the DSMB specialty that I hope to submit at the end of this month, there are just two key reviewers from whom I'm awaiting feedback. I plan on doing the same for the Self-Reliant diver early next year - writing manuals is a huge effort. I do this because I want my students to have manuals for courses that I want to either teach or include in my AOW program). So I do think I do add value to the PADI organization. And honestly, I do enjoy teaching under PADI, as I think I can give my students a quality education within the standards and I have more than enough students to teach. I have to turn some people away. With my long term goals (opening up a dive operation in the Greek islands), being a PADI instructor at this moment works great and I believe will continue to work great. We'll see as time goes on. The way I plan to address any shortcomings is to offer package deals of multiple courses that combine to something that I feel is of real value.

 

[The Chairman]

I meant to say that the false message was heavily promoted and exaggerated by certain individuals in their posts on ScubaBoard.

Better, but their claims were debunked and the only way to truly promote such false information is off of ScubaBoard.

It's OK to not like an agency. There's one that I don't like and it's not PADI. It's OK to be critical of an agency. Citing things you don't like isn't a "bash". Hijacking every other thread to express your distaste is.

The only stipulation in the PADI standards is that all skills in "session 1" must be completed before starting "session 2",

So what pool session does PADI introduce neutral buoyancy? After a bit of mask clearing in the kiddie pool, that's skill #1 for my students to master. We won't touch another skill until they are comfortable with that. That's actually another reason I haven't become a PADI instructor. I have my own sequence that I've developed over years of training. It's incredibly efficient and never wastes the student's or my time and it works with Nervous Nellies as well as with the Mark Spitz' of the world. I'll teach for any agency that will let me teach my way and not make me do a CESA.

I say a student has to perform a displacement clear as the only allowable snorkel clear.

Meh. I can't remember the last time I spent any time on a snorkel. I buddy breathe (one reg only) two lengths of the pool with my student (horizontally). We start with me taking one breath to every 3 or 4 of theirs. By the time we hit the first wall, they've found new courage and determination and we're on a 2-2 basis. By the time we hit the other wall, I'm taking 3 or 4 breaths to their two. It's an incredible confidence builder and the change is amazing. I've never had a student fail to do it, so it's moot for me. If they are not comfortable with any skill, PADI says they don't pass.

So what are their options?

This is the overthinking it part. I've heard PADI tell an instructor at their DEMA pavilion exactly what you said. If you maintain that they are "not comfortable" with any skill, PADI will stand behind you. You can't equivocate with a "Yes, but..." caveat. It has to be a firm "No, they are not comfortable". Just don't label any skill as going beyond the scope of the class and you're fine. Don't compare it to other "lesser" instructors. Don't portray yourself as having a higher standard than anyone else. Just say "No, they are not comfortable in my opinion" and the discussion stops.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

This is the overthinking it part. I've heard PADI tell an instructor at their DEMA pavilion exactly what you said. If you maintain that they are "not comfortable" with any skill, PADI will stand behind you. You can't equivocate with a "Yes, but..." caveat. It has to be a firm "No, they are not comfortable". Just don't label any skill as going beyond the scope of the class and you're fine. Don't compare it to other "lesser" instructors. Don't portray yourself as having a higher standard than anyone else. Just say "No, they are not comfortable in my opinion" and the discussion stops.

Me overthink something? BULLSH.... okay, you're right.

 

[RayfromTX]

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