NAUI versus PADI

[The Chairman]

Where the differences show up are in the flexibility the instructors have to go above and beyond

I have found this to be false. It was perpetuated in every NAUI ITC that I was a part of and I would like to see it stop. Just because a competitor says something about their rival, doesn't make it so. I've seen PADI instructors teach way out of the box, even to the point of me asking them if this is cool with PADI. The look I got was priceless, and he responded with an incredulous "You don't really believe all that crap, do you?" Oh, my. I was a bit embarrassed. I had been duped into believing disparaging myths from a competing agency. Consequently, I have tried to never make assumptions about what or how the other camp teaches. Odds are, my beliefs are simply regurgitating some other agency's propaganda. I can tell you what's expected of NASE, SDI/TDI, and Diveheart because I teach for them. I used to be able to comment about what NAUI teaches, but I'm sure they've changed some things since I abandoned them years ago, so I refrain. Why speak out of ignorance and half truths and continue the "Us vs Them" baditude? I'll let the PADI pros tell me what and how they teach, and I hope for the same courtesy when it's my turn to describe what I teach. It's like religion. I don't need you to tell me what I believe when I know precisely what that really entails. Go ahead and tell me your beliefs, but don't pigeon hole me with your distorted view of what you think I believe. Ask, listen and stop spreading rumors.

Every active PADI instructor and DM received the training update in Undersea Journal this year that states we are to start teaching neutral.

I have been a part of IDCs for three agencies now. Two of them dinged instructor candidates for not getting their students to kneel as they weren't "under control" when they were in the Scuba Position (horizontal). Early Scuba instruction was by ex-military demolition divers who often kneeled to complete their tasks. For them, being able to kneel was a part of learning to Scuba dive and the entire industry adopted that as a part of training. I have seen kneeling skills done by just about every agency that's active here in the US. I can't tell you how many times I've been called a liar when I tell other instructors I don't allow kneeling or lying on the bottom of the pool at any time by students in an OW class. I have been badgered with "How do you do it?", but there's no real answer to that other than "I simply do not allow them to kneel". There's no special sauce. You don't need to be an extraordinary instructor. You just need to set the example and let the concept of "Monkey see, monkey do" kick in. You can't teach what you don't do, though. A student can't be what they can't see. It doesn't matter whose aegis you teach under, but you can't impart skills you don't have or are too lazy to master. Students want to be JUST LIKE their instructor. So, play the part. Set the example. Have fun and hover like there's no tomorrow.

Many of you know that I only teach NASE OW and you may wonder why. The reason is simple: they don't allow me to do a CESA vertically in open water. My students do them horizontally in the pool, and so I am not continuously subjected to rapid ascents. Ever wonder why instructors get bent more than the rest of the Scuba population? I sure do and I believe that multiple CESAs per class is the biggest and most preventable reason. Ear bends, barotraumas, actual DCS and more can easily be explained by doing 10 CESAs in a short amount of time. NASE's philosphy is simple: Every dive should consist of one descent and one ascent. Remember I posted about "Monkey see, monkey do"? My students want to be me, so if they see me doing multiple bounce dives, even in a training environment, what message am I sending them? That it's OK to break the rules? That I'm not subject to the laws of physics like everyone else? That bounce dives really aren't that bad? Egads! I need to set the example and NASE agrees. I like that. FWIW, it's my understanding that RAID and IANTD don't require open water CESAs either. I've heard that from their instructors, so I think it's probably true. I certainly wish that all agencies would adopt the no vertical CESA rule as it decimates our collective instructor corp.

 

[Sevenrider860]

Not required yet but soon to be and strongly recommended now.
I can't look it up right now but I believe it was the same one that discussed the weight drop requirement and suggested having your DM catch the weights.

I will admit when I read something I agree with is recommended I sometimes interpret that as a requirement.

The 2017 Q1 Training Bulletin discussed the Emergency Weight Drop and it does not have any section that requires all skills be taught midwater or in neutral buoyancy. I am not in disagreement about teaching skills neutral buoyant, but you stated:

"Every active PADI instructor and DM received the training update in Undersea Journal this year that states we are to start teaching neutral. Updates are required reading." @Diver0001 agreed with you as if that statement was fact.

That statement is incorrect. I point that out because there are some non-PADI members on ScubaBoard and they may not have access to the PADI Standards or Training Bulletins to realize that what you have stated is incorrect.

"Not required yet but soon to be..." Can you let me know which PADI Course Director call you attended this year where that change to the Standards was discussed?

 

[The Chairman]

"Not required yet but soon to be..." Can you let me know which PADI Course Director call you attended this year where that change to the Standards was discussed?

Personally, I find this 'myth' to be a good one and even worth spreading. It's certainly better than the myth that PADI requires their students to kneel. Unfortunately, I've heard that rumor far more often and from actual PADI instructors. I think PADI removing all images showing students kneeling in their training materials a great start and look forward to them evolving this even further. Good job, PADI!

 

[boulderjohn]

I have found this to be false. It was perpetuated in every NAUI ITC that I was a part of and I would like to see it stop. Just because a competitor says something about their rival, doesn't make it so. I've seen PADI instructors teach way out of the box, even to the point of me asking them if this is cool with PADI. The look I got was priceless, and he responded with an incredulous "You don't really believe all that crap, do you?

This myth was chiefly perpetrated on ScubaBoard by a couple of people who kept repeating it in thread after thread after thread, no matter how often they were corrected. The misunderstanding comes from the PADI rule that you cannot FAIL a student in the course for the inability to perform a task or demonstrate knowledge that is not in the standards. That does not mean you can't teach it. It is an especially silly interpretation when you remember that the course is standards-based. We don't fail students when they don't perform up to standard anyway--we keep teaching them until they meet the standard.

Another example of the silliness these posters perpetuated was the idea that we cannot even talk about things that are not in the standards. An example cited was tides. Tides are definitely mentioned briefly in the OW course, but not in great detail. If you are teaching a course in many and perhaps most places, there is no need to go beyond that. If, on the other hand, you are conducting the OW dives in an area where tides make a difference, you have no choice but to deal with tides in more detail. Students are required to do their own dive planning, and to do that in such locations, they MUST consider tides. The mindless PADI haters kept insisting that instructors in such locations were forbidden to give students the information they needed to plan those dives.

have been a part of IDCs for three agencies now. Two of them dinged instructor candidates for not getting their students to kneel as they weren't "under control" when they were in the Scuba Position (horizontal). Early Scuba instruction was by ex-military demolition divers who often kneeled to complete their tasks. For them, being able to kneel was a part of learning to Scuba dive and the entire industry adopted that as a part of training.

When our group researched the history of instruction for the PADI article on neutral buoyancy instruction that spurred these changes, we came to the conclusion that initial skill instruction was done on the knees from the very beginning because there was nothing to aid in buoyancy then--not even wet suits. Divers plunked down on the bottom of the pool with cylinders strapped directly to their backs. The wet suit was eventually invented, followed by a variety of crude buoyancy control devices. By the time that we developed the ability to have students hover easily, instructing on the knees was a thoroughly entrenched procedure.

 

[Diver0001]

The mindless PADI haters kept insisting that instructors in such locations were forbidden to give students the information they needed to plan those dives.

This one bothered me more than all of the other mental diarrhea combined.

The PADI standard explicitly states that the instructor is required to "explain local procedures and techniques" (those are the exact words) and one of these people in particular could not be stopped from stating in every thread he was in that PADI instructors were forbidden from doing exactly that.

No matter how many times we quoted standards and explained to him the he was wrong he went on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about this.

The worst part was that he had a high ranking position in the CMAS organisation so people believed him because he was presumably an authority about these things. The fact was he was a bitter, BITTER old man with an axe to grind and an sincere hatred of the PADI organisation and some of the people there. He did so much damage on SB until John confronted CMAS HQ about it and they made him stop posting.

It still makes me angry to think about it. There are enough legitimate concerns to discuss without making up fairy tails!

When our group researched the history of instruction for the PADI article on neutral buoyancy instruction that spurred these changes, we came to the conclusion that initial skill instruction was done on the knees from the very beginning because there was nothing to aid in buoyancy then--not even wet suits. Divers plunked down on the bottom of the pool with cylinders strapped directly to their backs. The wet suit was eventually invented, followed by a variety of crude buoyancy control devices. By the time that we developed the ability to have students hover easily, instructing on the knees was a thoroughly entrenched procedure.

Yes, even in the CMAS organisation it was like this. A number of years ago I retrained an old CMAS instructor who was active in the late 60's but hadn't dived for decades because of family and career. He had never even seen a BCD. Comically, when I showed him one he gave me a big childlike smile and said, "Oh my God... ANYONE could dive if they have one of THESE".

He explained to me that CMAS had made a snorkel "mandatory" equipment in his time because the snorkel was used under water for pushing off the bottom without damaging the marine life.

R..

 

[RainPilot]

I have found this to be false. It was perpetuated in every NAUI ITC that I was a part of and I would like to see it stop. Just because a competitor says something about their rival, doesn't make it so. I've seen PADI instructors teach way out of the box, even to the point of me asking them if this is cool with PADI. The look I got was priceless, and he responded with an incredulous "You don't really believe all that crap, do you?" Oh, my. I was a bit embarrassed. I had been duped into believing disparaging myths from a competing agency. Consequently, I have tried to never make assumptions about what or how the other camp teaches. Odds are, my beliefs are simply regurgitating some other agency's propaganda. I can tell you what's expected of NASE, SDI/TDI, and Diveheart because I teach for them. I used to be able to comment about what NAUI teaches, but I'm sure they've changed some things since I abandoned them years ago, so I refrain. Why speak out of ignorance and half truths and continue the "Us vs Them" baditude? I'll let the PADI pros tell me what and how they teach, and I hope for the same courtesy when it's my turn to describe what I teach. It's like religion. I don't need you to tell me what I believe when I know precisely what that really entails. Go ahead and tell me your beliefs, but don't pigeon hole me with your distorted view of what you think I believe. Ask, listen and stop spreading rumors.


I have been a part of IDCs for three agencies now. Two of them dinged instructor candidates for not getting their students to kneel as they weren't "under control" when they were in the Scuba Position (horizontal). Early Scuba instruction was by ex-military demolition divers who often kneeled to complete their tasks. For them, being able to kneel was a part of learning to Scuba dive and the entire industry adopted that as a part of training. I have seen kneeling skills done by just about every agency that's active here in the US. I can't tell you how many times I've been called a liar when I tell other instructors I don't allow kneeling or lying on the bottom of the pool at any time by students in an OW class. I have been badgered with "How do you do it?", but there's no real answer to that other than "I simply do not allow them to kneel". There's no special sauce. You don't need to be an extraordinary instructor. You just need to set the example and let the concept of "Monkey see, monkey do" kick in. You can't teach what you don't do, though. A student can't be what they can't see. It doesn't matter whose aegis you teach under, but you can't impart skills you don't have or are too lazy to master. Students want to be JUST LIKE their instructor. So, play the part. Set the example. Have fun and hover like there's no tomorrow.

Many of you know that I only teach NASE OW and you may wonder why. The reason is simple: they don't allow me to do a CESA vertically in open water. My students do them horizontally in the pool, and so I am not continuously subjected to rapid ascents. Ever wonder why instructors get bent more than the rest of the Scuba population? I sure do and I believe that multiple CESAs per class is the biggest and most preventable reason. Ear bends, barotraumas, actual DCS and more can easily be explained by doing 10 CESAs in a short amount of time. NASE's philosphy is simple: Every dive should consist of one descent and one ascent. Remember I posted about "Monkey see, monkey do"? My students want to be me, so if they see me doing multiple bounce dives, even in a training environment, what message am I sending them? That it's OK to break the rules? That I'm not subject to the laws of physics like everyone else? That bounce dives really aren't that bad? Egads! I need to set the example and NASE agrees. I like that. FWIW, it's my understanding that RAID and IANTD don't require open water CESAs either. I've heard that from their instructors, so I think it's probably true. I certainly wish that all agencies would adopt the no vertical CESA rule as it decimates our collective instructor corp.

You CAN do a vertical CESA in training. Usually useful if multi certifying students.

Not required and I refuse to do them.

 

[The Chairman]

This myth was chiefly perpetrated on ScubaBoard

This is false, John. The myth existed before ScubaBoard was created, and we've probably done more to dispel it than any single entity in the diving community. We may allow criticism, but we don't allow bashing.

 

[Akimbo]

This is false, John. The myth existed before ScubaBoard was created, ...

That is consistent with my experience, starting in the the mid-1970s. I wasn't paying much attention to recreational training but PADI and NASDS stories were unavoidable.

 

[george_austin]

Hardly makes a difference because whomever gives you your first card, you're still a shavetail newb.
What matters is what you've done in the 10-20 years since you've become a diver.

 

[boulderjohn]

This is false, John. The myth existed before ScubaBoard was created, and we've probably done more to dispel it than any single entity in the diving community. We may allow criticism, but we don't allow bashing.

Sorry--my wording was faulty and sent a message I did not intend. I meant to say that the false message was heavily promoted and exaggerated by certain individuals in their posts on ScubaBoard.