NAUI DIR tech course content (kinda split from DIR variances)
- Thread starter chickdiver
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OP
Exactly. And if you don't do this, flow will push your line around, as can other divers passing through behind you. Granted, if ~if~ the arrow you used to make the other side of your "stop" (as in cookie, your girth hitch, arrow on the mainline) is a permanent marker. Who is to say that it wasn't placed for some reason by a team who passed through in front of you, who may pass through on their exit, removing thier arrow, while you are still on another line. ~or~ lets consider an unmarked jump- not every system out there has "permanent" markers all over the place.
Basically, your way (hitching onto the line, rather than through the slots of the marker) leaves a lot of variables unaddressed. Personally I could care less as to whether you choose to use a cookie or an arrow. I dislike cookies and don't use them personally- however, I wouldn't bust a student for using one in a situation that the prevailing attitude feels is "appropriate".
Actually I get it
I have seen quite afew sloppy girth hitchs that are more like abasketball sized loop that are WELL away from the cookie/marked jump whatever because the loop got so big as to pass over the marker (cookie or arrow) IMHO YOUR jump line needs to be attached to YOUR marker (cookie or arrow), so I'm in exact agreement with Heather here.
We are talking about an extra half second to secure and extra second to remove.
SparticleBrane
Contributor
Warning: non cave diver alert, asking a genuine question here...
Scenario:
You come to an unmarked jump, toss a line arrow pointing to your exit, tie into that, and head off into the passage. However, your exit is not the closest exit. Thus your arrow is pointing in the opposite direction of the arrows on the main line, yes?
Another team is on the mainline, no lights/siltout/whatever and is following arrows to get out. Suddenly they come across your arrow, which is pointing in the opposite direction of the arrows they've been following.
What happens now?
Scenario:
You come to an unmarked jump, toss a line arrow pointing to your exit, tie into that, and head off into the passage. However, your exit is not the closest exit. Thus your arrow is pointing in the opposite direction of the arrows on the main line, yes?
Another team is on the mainline, no lights/siltout/whatever and is following arrows to get out. Suddenly they come across your arrow, which is pointing in the opposite direction of the arrows they've been following.
What happens now?
Someone would be removing one of the arrows from a marked jump?
What's up with the sig line then?
they will also feel your jump line and ignore the arrow beside it, esp. if it "says" something different than the arrows they have been following...however when the loop has slipped over that arrow and it is 10 feet away it could REALLY confuse a team having the bad day you just describe....
Warning: non cave diver alert, asking a genuine question here...
Scenario:
You come to an unmarked jump, toss a line arrow pointing to your exit, tie into that, and head off into the passage. However, your exit is not the closest exit. Thus your arrow is pointing in the opposite direction of the arrows on the main line, yes?
Another team is on the mainline, no lights/siltout/whatever and is following arrows to get out. Suddenly they come across your arrow, which is pointing in the opposite direction of the arrows they've been following.
What happens now?
OP
OK... step back for a minute.. can you imagine a situation where you come to a jump, and see a marker there. You make the assumption that the marker is "permanent" and based on that deploy the jump in your usual fashion. The problem is... the merker wasn't permanent.. you made an incorrect assumption basedon what you have previously seen. So in the interim the team who placed the marker comes through and removes it. Now what?
I'll grant you that the scenario might not be all that common or likely in a system like Peacock or other highly traveled systems. But all systems are not like that. One of my favorites, Hole in the Wall, until very recently had the original exploration line in it. Markers were few and far between. There are still very few jumps marked there at all. It would not be out of the question for a team to drop a marker for reassurance (common in new cave divers) conicidentally at a the location of a jump. They might never even know there was a jump there.
It was drilled into me in my training (and I have seen it proven true again and again) that you should never, ever assume that the configuration of the line and markers on it will be the same from one dive to the next. The lines at even popularly dived caves like Ginnie and Peacock changes somewhat frequently. How many of you remember the "snap n gap" at Hill 400? Based on that, and on my experiences over the years, the only markers I trust are my own, placed that day. Referencing existing markers is great, but in a several thousand foot penetration, how many do you think you pass? Do you really think you would notice if one were removed before your exit?
Adobo
Contributor
The method described by RJack and Jason B is what I remember from my class. That is, you secure your jump line with a cookie on one side (exit side) and secure it with arrow that presumably is there on the main line anyway.
The method you described where you put a line arrow (pointing to the exit) and tie off to the arrow was also covered in my class. One would then tie off on the line arrow. This arrow would serve to indicate the direction of the exit and would also secure the jump line.
I am not sure if what we are talking about here a DIR vs. non-DIR approach or if we are talking about the difference between how two DIR practitioners approach the same problem. (I am not even sure that I would have been taught the same thing had I gone to Florida instead of Mexico to take Cave 1).
As a side note, I would hope that we all continue to keep our cool in this thread. I am doing more learning in this thread than probably the last 20 "DIR" threads I have seen combined. I personally have seen all of you post on other threads before and have great respect for your opinions.
Well, I've used this method in flow many times with no issues. I always attempt to tie in at 90 degree angles which makes the line as short as possible and prevents and line movement. If you tie in at any angle other than a 90, then is creates the diagonal you mentioned and can slip. There are others things that can be done as well. Take the hill 400 jump at Ginnie, instead of tying into the mainline and running the jump straight over the the jump line, run it straight down and then go across to the jump. It also keeps the passage clear for scooters.
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