NAUI DIR tech course content (kinda split from DIR variances)

[lamont]

So as you pick up the 5th jump reel was it a left or a right, now that the arrow is gone? Have you done a dive with multiple jumps yet that was long enough to cause you to question your memory or decisions? I have, and I bet you will too.

I bet I've forgotten it long before the 5th jump reel. My memory sucks.

 

[chickdiver]

Again, I don't rely on the arrows, I'll be relying on my cookie which will be placed on my exit side.

I'm wondering if I'm reading your scenario wrong maybe. Yes, I have done dives with multiple jumps and the cookie method has worked fine.

I know your not trying to be argumentative and certainly not taking it as such.

OK, let me try phrasing this another way. You pull your jump. Your cookie is the only marker on the main line (for whatever reason, something changed while you were on the other line). How do you know your direction of exit? Can you be 100% unequivocably sure of that direction? Could that cause you to second guess yourself?

As an aside, when DO you use arrows?

 

[KMD]

So.. in your scenario.. a team of 3 will place 3 cookies on the exit side of the line. I'm not going to tell you that is wrong, becuase it certainly does give you confirming information, but talk about inefficient!? It takes quite a lot longer than you might suppose for each of you to deply and properly place that cookie. Much less time than the lead diver dropping an marker and tieing through it, each team member has seen this action and confirmed it for himself. It isn't going anywhere. As for ineffciency in picking up the jump, it's no more inefficient that untieing a girth hitch fromt he main line. Diver 2 pulls the "Jasper mod" (small loop) at the end of the big loop, reel man passes the spool through the large loop, picks up his marker and you are on your way.

The directional/ non-directional cookie thing is interesting, but in my mind it needlessly complicates matters.

I will agree with you there that its absolutely more inefficient. A diver friend of ours recently talked about the history of cookies and placement methods and basically said that originally people were using clothespins, but found that the "pins" were easy to dislodge so each team mate would end up placing a marker as a backup. Then the cookie came along and as they were much more secure and in the interest in efficiency they went back to only placing a single marker.

The main point that she raised was that in a high flow cave, in certain places having to stop to place markers or hold in place while people fiddle around can cause the diver to blow through quite a bit of gas so procedures developed to become as efficient as possible. In low flow caves (such as Mexico) this level of efficiency becomes much less critical, as one can easily hover in place with very little effort.

 

[chickdiver]

I will agree with you there that its absolutely more inefficient. A diver friend of ours recently talked about the history of cookies and placement methods and basically said that originally people were using clothespins, but found that the "pins" were easy to dislodge so each team mate would end up placing a marker as a backup. Then the cookie came along and as they were much more secure and in the interest in efficiency they went back to only placing a single marker.

The main point that she raised was that in a high flow cave, in certain places having to stop to place markers or hold in place while people fiddle around can cause the diver to blow through quite a bit of gas so procedures developed to become as efficient as possible. In low flow caves (such as Mexico) this level of efficiency becomes much less critical, as one can easily hover in place with very little effort.

Well... I'm a Florida trained cave diver. In fact, in the somewhere int he neighborhood of 1000 cave dives I have done, less than 100 of them have been in Mexico. High flow cave does present it's own challenges. Personally I think people who only train in Mexico (unless you only ever plan to cave dive in Mexico) have done themselves a disservice. Part of learning to dive in high flow is to learn how and where to position yourself when you need to do something like place a marker and tie into it. It's a necessary skill, just like any other. Think of it this way, if you can't handle it long enough to place jump correctly, how can you ever hope to do it when starting a lost buddy search, especially given the likely increase in adrenaline?

 

[rjack321]

OK, let me try phrasing this another way. You pull your jump. Your cookie is the only marker on the main line (for whatever reason, something changed while you were on the other line). How do you know your direction of exit? Can you be 100% unequivocably sure of that direction? Could that cause you to second guess yourself?

As an aside, when DO you use arrows?

Unmarked jump here or a jump which you thought was marked but only by a single arrow which has now been removed by another team...

You are reeling in your jump spool. You arrive at the mainline. Before you untie the spool you should be referencing the exit side of the line. Your buddy ahead of you already has. The exit should have 2 cookies on it (team of 2) Yours immediately next to the spools line, and you buddy's closer to the exit. You buddy may have already removed his cookie or is in the process of doing so.

There are two references:
1) the position of the jump line/knot relative to the cookie
2) the position of the cookies relative to each other (yours being inside and your buddy's being towards home.

3 times I would use an arrow:
To tie off to during a lost buddy search. In case my buddy finds the line he knows this is a jump line (knotted every 5 ft) and that I am over there. Fast too.

To mark my suspected exit direction after completing a lost line drill. Easy to get turned around if I was lost already.

If I was in a system where the arrow direction had changed and had not found my missing buddy... I would place an arrow consistent with the general navigation of the cave, then place my cookie on the outbound side. That tells my solo exiting buddy that: 1) arrows are pointing the wrong way in here, and 2) you are headed the correct direction.

 

[KMD]

Well... I'm a Florida trained cave diver. In fact, in the somewhere int he neighborhood of 1000 cave dives I have done, less than 100 of them have been in Mexico. High flow cave does present it's own challenges. Personally I think people who only train in Mexico (unless you only ever plan to cave dive in Mexico) have done themselves a disservice. Part of learning to dive in high flow is to learn how and where to position yourself when you need to do something like place a marker and tie into it. It's a necessary skill, just like any other. Think of it this way, if you can't handle it long enough to place jump correctly, how can you ever hope to do it when starting a lost buddy search, especially given the likely increase in adrenaline?

Well while I think the example you give is rather silly (the flow doesn't pick up suddenly now that one is doing a lost buddy search) I do agree with you on wanting to go dive in Florida as well to help broaden my dive experiences and hope to get out there soon. Just haven't had the chance yet. While you may have 1000 cave dives, my level is juuust a bit lower with 21.

 

[Jason B]

OK, let me try phrasing this another way. You pull your jump. Your cookie is the only marker on the main line (for whatever reason, something changed while you were on the other line). How do you know your direction of exit? Can you be 100% unequivocably sure of that direction? Could that cause you to second guess yourself?

As an aside, when DO you use arrows?

As was mentioned above, everyone in my team drops a cookie so all the cookies would have to magically disappear for this to be a situation. I was taught, as I'm sure others have, don't remove markers that are not yours so no one should be coming up and pulling 3 cookies off a line where a jump line is installed a couple inches away.
But answer your question, if it did happen, would I 100% know for sure which way to go? For the dives I'm doing, I'd say probably yes as I don't do exploration type dives, just diving in the popular caves down in NFL. We always plan our dives out with maps and are pretty familiar with all the main passages in most of the popular systems. We don't just go in and willy nilly make jumps. Might sound boring but we have fun - I have only been cave diving 2.5 years and have a tad over 100 cave dives so my experience is no where near yours.

To answer your second question I do carry a couple of arrows that I'd use for lost buddy and line issues. Thankfully I've yet to have to use them.


I do agree that all cave divers should do some training dives in flow. :grip_n_ri

 

[chickdiver]

OK, I'll take that answer. Let's fast forward to apoint in time when you are doing exploration or diving caves with no maps available. Do you think a re-examinatin of procedures might be needed at that point, or are you confident that what you have learned and practiced previously will still be valid in all situations? If you do decide to re-evaluate, and decide to change your procedures, do you think that will be difficult based on years of habit? What are the chances you might inadvertently revert to previous procedures with detrimental effect?

Believe it or not, I've been asking myself these kinds of questions for years, and over the years there have been things I have changed- forming the new habit wasn't easy, harder depending on the "age" of the habit. I do every dive as if it were exploration- it's the only way to ingrain the habits (I'm sure you guys can see the rationale behind that).

 

[Meng_Tze]

I am not sure if anyone thought through a scenario where we are in zero vis and sharing gas. There is no time to waste on where your cookie is in relation to the line, to the other cookie etc, etc. Coming out of a side tunnel, in zero vis, sharing gas and stressed.... a line arrow with my line tied in is unequivocally clear: EXIT OVER THERE=>

I think there was an accident some time ago where a team had cookies on the line, their tie in to the mainline moved, and they had an emergency. It seemed that they went back and forth to find the cookies wasting gas. They died just short of the exit. Not sure of the exact details. Aline arrow would probably have toled them in time where to go.......

 

[rjack321]

I think there was an accident some time ago where a team had cookies on the line, their tie in to the mainline moved, and they had an emergency. It seemed that they went back and forth to find the cookies wasting gas. They died just short of the exit. Not sure of the exact details. Aline arrow would probably have toled them in time where to go.......

Couldn't have been that long ago, cookies are a fairly modern concept. Do you have a date so we can see the IUCRR writeup? There was the now famous Calimba circuit deaths. But that was a single cookie and a snap-n-gap in use.