My Venture into GUE - Another view

[Cave Diver]

I had one of those classes just this past Saturday, in fact.

Thanks for the reply. I'd be interested in pursuing a discussion on this side track if you'd be willing to post about it in a separate thread.

 

[Jax]

If you know it all then why did you fail? I am genuinely curious. You are the first person I have ever heard of that took absolutely nothing away from a Fundies class.

:rtfm:

Try reading from the beginning. As I have said up front, and several times through the tread, I dived in an unfamiliar configuration.

Had I not studied intensely, reading various books as suggested by people on this board who I respect, had I not had the classes I've taken, then there might have been a different outcome.

GUE says, "Dive our standard gas to the depths we dictate." Okay. I'm not going to do that, but whatever floats your boat. I prefer to do my own calculations and know my own margin of safety. But, I know and understand how they do things and I can execute them if I dive with those that practice it. Will I do the 'timed descent in a triangle' thing? Uh, no. It's a worthwhile drill if I'm practicing on my own, but nothing I'd waste time during a fun dive.

Trim and hovering motionless? I can do it in the rig I've been practicing in the past six months. My instructor trimmed me out first thing and I did okay.

I've actually learned WAY more since I took the class . . . on this board and in this thread.

 

[Adobo]

My rub is with the notion perpetuated on this board that everyone, including people who want or need a tech pass, should enter GUE-F 'with an open mind' and no prior preparation.

I'd be interested in seeing instances where anyone who has taken fundies or teaches fundies gives the advice that "everyone" should enter fundies with no prep.

I have seen instances where people advice that no prep is required for a diver to take fundies - save of course getting the required gear and setting up the logistics. That is not to say that there are any guarantees of passing at even a rec level. But then again, in my opinion, the concept of passing fundies is way overrated, particularly for those with under 100 dives.

I can see where over the course of time, someone can confuse the latter for the former.

 

[Jax]

The way that reads to me, with your quotations around taught, indicates that you don't feel you learned any skills during the class. Am I interpreting that correctly?

Geez, how many times / ways do I have to say this -- I learned the GUE way of doing business. Period.

I had already learned the skills 'taught' in class. We did not get any of the 'how' of which I had been told -- "they put you on a floor, and manipulate your feet through the proper movements of the kick". Didn't happen! "They put your gear in the GUE standard and adjust it properly, and trim you out." Didn't happen!

They showed videos. Hello, I saw those same videos on YouTube! Just what was I supposed to 'learn'? That I didn't have perfect control of my buoyancy? Trust me, I ****ing well knew that!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Sadly, two of them don't come on the board anymore.

In spite of several respected GUE advocates opining that our class was not 'normal', that given that one instructor was an intern, it should have been only three people, and that the three of us that are opining in this thread are all believing we should have had more in-water time (and seconded by others), now it becomes turned around to be the students' fault.

I took this class for one reason - to see what all this GUE hype was about. I posted my trip report after conferring with others as to the appropriateness of the location and tone of the report. I was surprised and delighted at the support from others . . . notably the West coast.

However, the ugliness from those who cannot (or refuse) to believe that there may be a flaw in their beloved system brings this around full circle -- if this is the 'best' of diving, I don't want to dive like that. I just want to be a more skilled diver, and the snide remarks from the 'elite' about practicing my skills in a pool just proliferate the 'holier-than-thou' image. (West Coast excepted, thank you! )

I'm gonna address a couple things here, Jax.

First off ... it's entirely possible (and again, this is purely speculation but it happens) that you simply chose the wrong instructor. A very good friend of mine took a higher-level GUE class with an instructor who is highly considered in the agency ... and had a terrible time. When speaking to her about it later, the conclusion I came to is that he was the wrong instructor for her. That doesn't reflect on the agency ... it doesn't reflect on the instructor's ability to teach ... it's simply that her learning style and his training style were a poor match. And as a result, the class didn't meet either her expectations or her needs.

Your experiences, as you've described them, are not "what all this GUE hype is about" ... at least not in any way that I've ever experienced it. If you should ever want to try again, there are other instructors and other locations that may better suit your needs.

In fact, if you do want to try again, let me recommend coming up this way and taking a class with Guy Shockey. I'll even offer to help you with equipment and a place to stay if you want (I'm sure TSandM would make the same offer).

I'm saying that because I came away from my first Fundies class with many of the same impressions you've expressed here ... and it took me a few months before I could even begin to feel differently. But ultimately I tried again, and it changed the way I dive in a profound way.

GUE is just an agency. And skills are just skills ... there are many ways to learn them. What I took away that was invaluable was a way of thinking about diving that was profoundly different than anything I'd been exposed to previously. To be sure, at about the same time I found a good mentor (Uncle Pug) who was also GUE trained ... but the class itself added some value that went well beyond the skills.

So don't base your judgement of GUE only on that one experience.

Oh, and FWIW, you're not the first person who's complained about a Fundamentals class in this forum. I recall a few years back someone else who was pretty unhappy with how their class went, and posted about it here. He got the crap kicked out of him by a few people ... but at least an equal number of DIR "regulars" were helpful and supportive. So I would also ask you to judge people as individuals ... based on their responses rather than their affiliations ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Adobo]

Ae you implying that it is the instructor's fault (or GUE's) that Jax chose to dive the gear that she chose to dive? I can speak from experience that when you make drastic changes to gear, it takes a while to get the tweaks worked out. To jump into a class like fundies in an unknown configuration is not a recipe for fun or a passing grade IMO. I bet she still took a boatload of valuable information away from the course.....but only she can admit to that.

That may be all true but to me, what would be a better place to learn how to size a backplate harness and trim out a rig than fundies? Or maybe Halemano and Don Janni are right after all. Backplates are pretty much bullhsit for the 99% of divers who can't figure out on their own outside of class how to properly size a harness and trim a rig outside of class. You don't even need to deal with any of that crap with jacket BC.

And maybe I am reading something other than what is being said but I would think the complaint isn't the lack of "success" during the class but rather the lack of instruction. Check her logs... 18 minute dives. In my fundies class, a descent and then a corresponding ascent to and from 30 feet would have easily taken 15 minutes.

 

[lamont]

This isn't in any intended as a criticism ... but I'm not at all sure that going into a Fundies class with as little in-water time as you have and expecting to come out with a tech pass is realistic.

The problem with practicing skills prior to coming to class is that if you have practiced the skill incorrectly, it will then become even more difficult to learn it properly. GUE trained mentors can be incredibly helpful ... but unless they're trained to teach, it's very easy for them (with the best of intentions) to send you down a path that's going to make the class more difficult, rather than easier.

Those two sentiments are really where the contradiction in fundies comes from.

I've watched the frustration wash out divers up here from GUE training, and I know the frustration I felt at kind of getting tossed into courses with insufficient preparation. I think there has to be a better way, which is why I've been mentoring divers through the program trying to get a higher success rate, even if its not all Tech passes all the time.

 

[Insta-Gator]

:surprised: Wow. I kept hoping this thread would get better and remain instructional. Now it's all"..did you say this?" or "..did you mean that?" Maybe it's too long for some folks to fully comprehend front to back. It did teach me two things. (1) AOW is as much certification as I will ever need and still retain the love of diving, (2) NEVER open yourself up to the board by sharing a bad experience, regardless of how helpful you many intend the post to be for others. The :flame: is just too intense.

 

[lamont]

Will I do the 'timed descent in a triangle' thing? Uh, no. It's a worthwhile drill if I'm practicing on my own, but nothing I'd waste time during a fun dive.

If you ever want to do Tech1 you should practice that.

And its a combination of the timed descents and timed ascents. For bonus points throw in an OOG at 10 feet on the way back up (as gas expands its typically harder on the ascent) and still try to nail the buoyancy window and without popping. Staying in a triangle keeping the upline with the team (fourth buddy) is also important since you don't want to get task loaded on a technical dive and lose the upline. Some of the rest of the positioning information is important so that all the divers have contact with each other and nobody is going to have a problem and have the other divers fail to react.

So, there's a point to all that, and there's a reason why those are skills for the Tech pass in order to go into Tech1, because you really won't be happy with Tech1 if you can't do those.

 

[johnkendall]

I'd be interested in seeing instances where anyone who has taken fundies or teaches fundies gives the advice that "everyone" should enter fundies with no prep.

I have seen instances where people advice that no prep is required for a diver to take fundies - save of course getting the required gear and setting up the logistics. That is not to say that there are any guarantees of passing at even a rec level. But then again, in my opinion, the concept of passing fundies is way overrated, particularly for those with under 100 dives.

I can see where over the course of time, someone can confuse the latter for the former.

I would much rather have someone come into the class having done no preparation than someone who comes in having practiced lots of stuff wrong.

A couple of weeks ago I had 2 people take Fundies from me, 1 had done Prep, 1 hadn't. They both got Rec Passes. I found it easier to teach the guy who hadn't prepped anything.

This is for Fundies though. Anyone coming to me for Tech1 who hasn't been out there practicing their fundies stuff is going to have a hard time, however I don't want people to try practicing what they think is required from T1 before I have a chance to teach it.

GUE Fundamentals is, and should be, a class where people are taught, not just assessed.

Thanks
John